Can SLDs die?, Permanently dead, I mean...

Virumor and I were discussing briefly this topic while on MSN Messenger, and I thought perhaps I should post it here as well for everyone to discuss.

Although the topic title says "Can SLDs die?", what I mean is whether they can be resurrected and not permanently dead.

Let's start discussing! Hopefully it wouldn't be a two-party discussion.

WJTW

ooo..this could get into the nature of life, consciousness, the existence of a soul and so forth.

The SLD's are highly randomized in their development too simulate individualism while being designed toward a specific purpose. For instance, look at basketball players, they all have similer attributes, tall, athletic, dexterous..anbd so forth. But they also have many different individual traits that set each one apart.

So each SLD is unique. Now, can they die? I'd say yes, if enouph damage was done to their "brain" or whatever stores their unique personal characteristics, to delete a decent number of them. I would clasify them as being dead.

Problems arise with this definition. When applied to a human, anyone who has suffered sufficient brain trauma so as to radicly change their personality would be classified as having died, with another person taking over their body, perhaps reborn as somone new.

To avoid this, I will just define SLD death as anything that causes a complete memory wipe(they should avoid magnets).


Now what about backup copies? Could Shinatama vs. .89 be sitting around in the computer mainframe like Spock in ST: III with the Dr.? I don't like this idea, so I will assume that SLD's use a entirly different form of encoding then computers, making their brain structure closer to that of a human than a robot. I will support this weakly by saying that Shinatama is capable as serving as a proxy deadly brain in mission 12(?)....

What happened to the other members? Even Virumor is not taking part in the discussion.

Death for an SLD is most likely like what you have said: The SLD is dead when its personality is damaged or erased, or when its chip is destroyed.

The actual personality of the SLD is in the brain/chip itself and we could hence say Shinatama is the personality in the chip and not the physical SLD itself. So, if the 'Shinatama' personality were to be erased/damaged, or the chip itself is damaged, then 'Shinatama' could be considered dead, even if the physical SLD were still intact.

According to what we know, an SLD is programmed using a person's (host's) brain engrams, just like Shinatama is programmed using Konoko's engrams. So, if the above 'Shinatama' were to have her personality erased or the chip itself destroyed, we could reset the chip, or have a new chip installed, and have it (re)programmed using Konoko's brain engrams; however, because every SLD is unique, the SLD will only closely resemble its predecessor despite their engrams coming from the same course, so, the 'Shimatama' personality (and hence 'Shinatama' herself) is still dead, and the successor is at most her twin.

The majority of the SLD deaths we see in the game are the deaths of the tankers. Another death we have seen would have to be the death of Shinatama when she was shot by Griffin. She had suffered great damage from the self-destruct that TCTF Command ordered, and so that shot most likely damaged her central chip and hence destroyed the Shinatama personality.

This is just an assumption and she (her personality) could very well still be alive inside the chip, and that she appeared dead only because the shot damaged the chip's ability to move the body. We cannot know unless more is known about her fate, although I think Bungie did intend her to die.

Oddly, while the self-destruct mechanism was powerful and destroyed the entire room, it did poorly in its intended task and failed to properly destroy the SLD, of all things. If the SLD could not be properly destroyed, and the computing chip is still capable of many things, then what is the use of the self-destruct mechanism?

How does this mechanism work, anyway? Is it a separate mechanism in Shinatama(the Xiox Destruct Mechanism?) controlled by her central chip, or is it her chip itself that does the destruction? It should be a separate mechanism because if it were the chip, it would have destroyed itself and not still be able to work in Level 13.

If the back-up theory were used, then it could explain how Shinatama survived the destruction. She didn't actually survive; the one attacking Konoko was just a recent backup. But this theory is ambiguous because on one hand, it says the self-destruct worked, but on the other hand, it says it didn't because it suggests the 'chip' survived for a back-up to be possible.

artent mentioned that the way data is encoded in an SLD's brain might be different from a computer's, and that it resembles more of the human brain than a robot. I am not sure whether they do resemble human brains more. It could be true, although they could still be a computer chip, albeit one that is more advanced and can simulate life.

SLDs are still programmed, and if they were programmable, there should be some way to contain the data resulting from this programme, and these data could then be backed-up. The programmers of the SLDs could have their own system for backups that are different from ordinary computers, but are nonetheless still computers.

But come to think of it, it is actually quite complex if backups were possible. Perhaps only the personality can be backed-up, and the memories and experiences cannot be backed-up because these are pretty much random things and are not stored as programmable data?

A crude analogy would be a program generating, say, random numbers. The code containing the conditions and variables can be backed up, but the numbers generated cannot be. Even if they could be backed-up, they will be quite useless since running the code will generate another set of different numbers... Unless the code can make use of the backup data and just continue from there?! Ah... that could be something.

Like I said, this is a crude analogy and besides, I am not a programming person so I don't know if this is even a useful or the correct analogy...

Unfortunately, we do not know much of SLD technology; however, we do know they are very life-like, even though they are androids, in that they have a lot of human functionalities. They can eat, sweat, etc. These are things that cannot be done by androids we typically imagine.

WJTW

Well, as your (usual) essay has already covered everything we could possibly discuss, i think this discussion is kinda over...

Drat.
I could take my words back by deleting them, and pretending never to have typed them...

I don't think there could be any problem backing up her memories just because they're memories -- if they can be stored in Shinatama, surely they can be stored in any computer; if not, they can be stored in another SLD.



I think the issue is bandwidth. Shinatama has a seriously large amount of data in her head, so it seems quite ok to assume that copying all of her brains out will take more than a couple of minutes. After all, there shouldn't be any real need to design her I/O to allow such operations; doing so would make it easier for terrorists (like Muro) to steal an SLD and extract all the data. Unless Muro has some advanced equipment (the future version of a Compact Flash card reader, I guess) he'll have to read the data through her normal I/O mechanisms. (Analogy: If you want to read the data on a hard drive, either go through its normal I/O system or get professional equipment to read it.)

Also, her data's encrypted (it has to be -- she's military hardware). So if they use some kind of special tricky key generation/storage, Muro's geeks might be unable to actually decode the information unless it's run through Shinatama while she's switched on -- thus having to go through her normal I/O system, and therefore limited by its bandwidth.

Perhaps, when an SLD is switched off, it could simply erase all its data? We never see Shinatama switched off, so if their battery technology is pretty good, they may have thought about taking this option. This is military security we're talking about (not that I have faith in TCTF's security practices in general, particularly with their computer systems and consoles).


Something about WJTW's ideas on random numbers gives me another idea. As long as the available bandwidth is finite, you can't view the state of all her memory at once.

(An analogy: you can't see what's in all a computer's RAM at once; you can only retrieve a byte at a time).
(Another analogy: Try mapping out downtown traffic by writing down the positions of cars, one car at a time.)

So, it would be rather difficult to determine her entire program state while she's running. A little obfuscation would go a long way here in making her much harder to reverse-engineer.



So, if you can't read her mind when she's running (because you can't figure out her whole brain at once) and you can't read her mind when she's switched off (because she encrypts or deletes all her data) then you can't back her up. And if you can't back her up, she can die, and all the fuss people make about androids dying makes a little more sense.

This post has been edited by typhen on Jul 8 2005, 11:17 PM

Well, as they weren't able to hack her, maybe that's the reason why the Syndicate retrieved the information they wanted by means of high voltage torture, then (apart from them being sadists).

Seemed to have missed this thread... I wonder why the forum did not indicate this as containing new posts. But, I'm glad to see new posts for this thread. I thought my previous post took every posting opportunity away.

Hmm, yes, now that you mentioned it, I had always wondered why Muro needed to torture Shinatama if all he wanted was the information she possessed. I wouldn't resort to torturing my computer if I wanted to access my files, would I?

So, it could be like what typhen said, that it was because using ordinary means (whatever 'ordinary' is in the future) would not allow Muro to extract any data from her, and he had to resort to hearing Shinatama blurt out the information, and hence the torture.

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But would you be able to read her mind in segments? If that were possible, then you could read her mind without any problems; it is just that you would not be able to read everything fast enough. It will also not be guaranteed that the data read -- and possibly recorded -- wouldn't be changed in the next second; backing it up would be useless.

Assuming her data is encrypted when she is turned off, I believe there should be ways to decrypt it, but only by high-ranking TCTF personnel.

It would be a rather good way to decrypt and then extract information from her while she is deactivated, wouldn't it? It would ensure that the data is not updated and remains the same (until her next activation, at least). But how are they going to extract anything from an SLD that is deactivated? Again, using a computer: I need to turn on the computer to do any file access. Still, there might be ways they can do that in the future, so...

Speaking of switching her off, it might be possible that she was switched off in transit from the TCTF Headquarters to the Atmosphere Processors. At least it seemed to be the case since we did not hear any communication between the Konoko and Shinatama after the latter was captured; however, you did suggest Konoko could still sense her (indicated to us through the torture cutscene, perhaps), and hence she is still not switched off. I'm not very sure about this since we were not told explicitly that this was the case, but it can be assumed.

On a slight-side-note, if the information Muro wanted were extracted through 'word of mouth', do you think Shinatama could have altered some figures here and there (enough to make it convincing, yet obviously not the truth)?

Yeah. Their consoles, even the ones containing sensitive information (like the one on Konoko in Level 13 - TCTF Headquarters Redux), seem to behave like public-access consoles. Even if they weren't, they used the same access code for every console, throughout the entire week.

The case is the same for all other consoles in the levels we have seen.

WJTW

Sure. She falsified reports of Konoko's progress to Griffin and Co, so she sure was able to lie and decieve.

I'm sure Muro only wanted information on Konoko's progress; as he already saw her with his own eyes in level 4, and as he already saw for himself to what she was capable, he already knew she was his sister. He also knew that she was 'almost' as strong as him, but perhaps he was concerned that she might be stronger than him and he wanted insurance.

Maybe then Shinatama lied to him about Konoko's progress : she told Muro Konoko was weaker than him and Muro believed her as he himself also didn't expect that SLDs were able to lie - and maybe this made him overconfident on the final battle, as he thought he was stronger than Konoko anyway. And that proved to be his downfall.

This post has been edited by virumor on Jul 13 2005, 09:38 PM

Exactly. Who would suspect that an SLD could lie? Shinatama could easily do that and Muro would not suspect it...

WJTW

I've been thinking about Shinatama for my ultra-secret Oni 2 outline. If SLD's are capable of dying, do you think they fear death? Would Shinatama?

Typhen, what do you know about biological computers in our own world? We could stretch a plot point and say that scientists in Oni's world made a functional fascimile of the human brain without full understanding of it, which would make backing a SLD's memory onto digital medium impossible. There's the whole empathic aspect of what Shinatama was used for, to gain insight into Mai's mental state and emotional condition -- "seen everything you have seen, felt everything you have felt." I'm assuming Griffin's intention there was to stamp her out if she ever showed signs of rebellion and independence, which Shinatama neglected to duly report to him. There's also Shinatama's upbringing in a senseloop of Mai's brain engrams. She's meant to process information in a similar way to Mai, which means she is the mainframe (so to speak) and can't really be replaced by anything other than another Shinatama.

This gets into the question of, what exactly is memory? Where is it stored in the human brain and is it replaceable? I don't have any answers but it's fascinating to think about and classic fare as far as cyberpunk lit goes.

SLD's are obviously more complicated when you factor in biology, put the principle probably holds the same for them... and for us...

Shinatama looked rather passive when she was going to self-destruct, and reported the order from TCTF Command matter-of-factly. Of course, there are no facial expressions in the game, but from the way she speaks one wonders whether she feels any fear receiving that order. Perhaps she was more worried about Konoko, since she did slow down the command.

Do you think it is possible for Shinatama to see into Konoko's memories as well and see events that happened before they were neural-linked?

I'll stop here now...

WJTW

Depends how far you take the "seen everything you have seen, felt everything you have felt" quote : does it only apply to what Konoko saw and felt since they got neurolinked, or does it also contain all of Konoko's emotions and memories. It's possible.

I imagine that's put vaguely enough you could run with either idea. If possessing all emotions and memories is the case, maybe the senseloop SLD's grow up in is necessary for them to come to terms with the fact that they're not the biological original. I see a lot more potential complications this way, it seems like a recipe for personality disorders. Shinatama is aware she's an SLD and Konoko is as well, correct?

I also had a nasty thought regarding extracting information from Shinatama. The TCTF created an extremely high level of pain sensation for Shinatama. She also has no way to shut herself down if she's cracking under torture and about to disclose information she shouldn't. Those two things together make no logical sense if she's handling extremely sensitive security information. The only real explanation I can think of is that the TCTF wanted to reserve the option of torturing information out of her themselves. That would also explain why they would tolerate a certain degree of independence and deceptiveness from Shinatama in the first place, which would be a-near predictable result of modeling her after Konoko.

Thoughts?

I think they just did this because they wanted Shinatama to be as human as possible, for some reason. Maybe Griffin wanted a near-human SLD because he wanted someone that Konoko would put all her trust in, to make it easier to monitor her ?

I don't think the TCTF really did it to be able to torture Shinatama... they never expected that Shinatama was able to decieve and falsify reports (see console in level 13), they were very surprised, even.

Muro needed to torture Shinatama because they didn't have the necessary "access codes" or whatever security passes needed to be able to get to the information stored inside Shinatama. The TCTF though, would have no problem with getting all data out of Shinatama, as it's their SLD. So torture doesn't really seem necessary to me.

This post has been edited by virumor on Jul 18 2005, 12:24 AM