Started at Carley's request. :hug: Have at it, ELFFs!! :thumbup:

CarleyB Posted: Aug 16 2012, 06:43 PM
I just remembered that Yuzuru Hanyu will be at SA. Technically he is brilliant, but he lacks in program components. I believe he has a quad toe and a quad Salchow. I don't know if he will do both at SA. Usually they don't do the full arsenal at the first competition, but since the penalties aren't so stiff any more, who knows? Hanyu is very young and not an experienced competitor. He usually does very well, but sometimes is sloppy.

I haven't looked really closely at the men's lineup other than the Americans. I believe Brezina and Werner will be there, and I thought Kozuka. I need to go back and check.I took notes of Worlds last year, but I don't know if I saved them. I still have what they broadcast of Worlds on NBC, but I did watch the whole thing on Icenet. IIRC, I did decide that only Chan and Takahashi were anywhere near the caliber Evan was with the total package. I very much wanted Takahashi to win Worlds over Chan, but he got too many -GOE's because of his landings on his toe picks. If you remember he kept kicking up a lot of ice on his landings. That did not happen at WTT. I do get very aggravated with Chan and how he still wins even thought he falls on his Axels, mostly, but it is hard to totally not like him because he is a good skater and has good programs choreoed by Lori Nichol.

The competition should be very exciting. Last year was the most horrible I have seen, ever. Kazuka was the reigning silver World medalist, and he skated awful. Brezina won with a pitiful score of 212. Everybody had the wind knocked right out of their sails. You can be sure that will not be the case with Evan there. They will definitely be on their A game, because they know Evan will be on his.

I am sure all of this training Evan has been able to get in this past year without the pressure of competition is really going to pay off really big!!


--------------------

keeper of Evan's 2006 National's TIME TO SAY GOODBYE exhibition program
keeper of Evan's height

LovelyRita: Posted: Aug 16 2012, 01:53 PM

Hoped we could get some discussion going about Evan's SA competition! Wasn't Kozuka the bronze medalist at Worlds last year? He has a quad salchow? Or am I mixing him up with someone else? I didn't watch him closely last season. (Was mostly focused on the Chan/Takahashi rivalry.)

I didn't pay too much attention to Jeremy until Nationals. All I remember about his GP season last year was he didn't do too well in the final, but he did win one competition despite being third in both short and free skate. (Was it Cup of China?) The rest of the field changed placements so dramatically between the two programs that Jeremy ended up with a win. Everyone was talking about it that weekend at the rink. Jeremy trains in Colorado and is popular here.

Also, what's the news on Jeremy's quad? I seem to remember reading he hasn't been including it consistently.

I could be wrong on all of this! Once it was clear Evan would not compete last season, I paid much less attention to the men than I normally would have.

My initial (albeit somewhat uninformed) opinion of the SA men's lineup is that the competition is tougher than it was last season, but nothing Evan can't handle.

ETA: My mistake. Yuzuru Hanyu took the bronze at Worlds last season. He's in the mix for SA. So that makes the competition stiffer yet. Should be an exciting one, unlike last year!

I just watched 2012 Worlds again this afternoon in order to be able to assess Abbott, Yuzuru Hanyu, and Brezina, who will all be at SA.

As everyone probably knows, Jeremy was a disaster at Worlds. He didn't hit his quad in his FS and most all of his other landings were really unsecure. His 3A's were bad and I believe he fell several times. I really do not see what people see in his skating to rave about and call it "beautiful," etc. If any of you do, please explain it to me. I have been watching figure skating for many, many years and I just don't see it. I can see it in Johnny Weir at times, when he isn't just repeating the same thing over and over. But Jeremy does more contortions with his body that, to me, are very unappealing. He calls these contortions "transitions," but I know that they didn't count for transitions at Worlds, because he was low in that PCS. He has some good edges, but I don't know why he doesn't have better edge control on his jumps, and his rideouts are nonexistent. Yet at Nationals he scores big numbers, both technically and in PCS. But SA will be an international panel. He did not do very well at last year's GP. So, I don't know anything about how his training has been going. I know he does not like to do repititions of elements, but likes to "fool around" with choreography because he would otherwise find training very boring. I heard this or read it in an article. One of those where he has a hard time controlling his mouth. I remember because I commented that perhaps he needed some boredom in his training to become consistent because that is one important area in which he lacks. At Worlds he also popped a jump. At that level he ought not to be doing that. My estimation is that it is a throw up what he will do at SA. I don't think he will be a threat to Evan because he usually does not peak until Nationals. Nobody is at peak at the first competition of the year, but we know that Evan is consistent and does not make the mistake that Jeremy does.

Yuzuru Hanyu is very young, only 18, which makes him an inexperienced competitor at the senior levels. However he is a jumping powerhouse when he is on. When is not on, he is very sloppy and makes a lot of mistakes. He did both at Worlds but obviously did well enough to place second in the FS and win the bronze medal. Hanyu has asthma and what I definitely noticed is that he began to run out of steam half way through his program. He fell on some footwork and immediately jumped up and did a 3A/3T combo that was very impressive. But that was the last really impressive thing he did. At this time I did not know he had asthma. I just noticed that he was really slowing down. By the time he got to his final spins, they were just about standing still. After his program is when you could tell he was in asthmatic distress. However, he started out with a lot of power and has a lot of talent and potential, especially with jumping. His PCS are not very good.

Brezina did very well in the SP, landing a beautiful 4S, which put him in 2nd place. However his FS was a different story. He was rather slow and his jumps were not secure. No way was her on a par with Evan in any category. I don't remember where he landed on the scoreboard. I don't see him as much of a threat. However he can have great days, good days, and bad days. Which one he will have is anybody's guess. This early in the season, I don't expect it to be great.

I estimate that if Evan skates as we know he can he should do very well. He is a solid competitor, never backs down, picks up steam as he goes through a program, whereas most of his competitors do the opposite. This is because Evan does so many complete run throughs of his programs. Others only practice parts of their programs at a time and never skate the whole thing until competition. I don't think that is a very good training technique and I don't know why their coaches don't make them do run throughs. Also, Evan's programs have been constructed this season to earn even more points according to the IJS. Everyone knows that he is a master at getting every point he can out of a program. He has 6 jumps this season in the second half of his FS. That is going to take a lot of stamina, but Evan can do it. Others can not. With his DWTS training, I am very excited to see the affect that will have on his PCS. What will really count is his quad or, hopefully, quad/combo. I don't think he will need the combo at SA, but he will definitely need it at Nationals and at Worlds. At Worlds, to really be competitive, two quads would be even better, although he has never attempted that in competition. I think he will definitely need two quads by the Olympics. Chan already has two. Brezina tried two, but failed. I am sure Takahashi is working on two and also Hanyu. I doubt Abbott is. He has to work on staying on his feet.

Thank you, Mary, for starting a thread where the COP geeks can analyze Evan's competitors!

I remember last year's SA as the sloppiest, most uninspiring men's competition I have ever suffered through. (Even the early groups at 4CC last February were not as bad!) After Evan's withdrawl, the poor showing by the rest of the men was like rubbing salt into the wound. I vividly recall even the lowest-ranked women crushing the men when it came to spins. Most of the men's spins were so slow, I thought someone was going to have to run out there to give them a push!

I also recall not one man skated a clean program. And without you mentioning it, Carley, I would not have remembered who won. All I remember is tortuously slow spins and splats! Really. It WAS that bad.

I struggle to give Chan a fair shake, too. I think it's spillover from my aggravation with the judges for propping him up so outrageously via PCS. How someone can make so many mistakes throughout the season and still win every competition is beyond me. As Phil Hersh pointed out last season, Chan was something like 5 for 6 in falls in competition. At some competitions, he fell in both his short and free skates.

I also don't understand why Daisuke does not get just as high PCS scores, or higher, than Chan. Daisuke needs to be more consistent, particularly on his quads, but he is a true artist on the ice. His choreography and interpretation skills are first rate, and IMHO do not get enough credit from the judges.

I have only seen Chan skate live once, at 4CC last year, and I have to say he did not endear himself to me. I thought he skated his short like a sleepwalker going through the motions by rote. His free skate was quite good, although I still think he tends to skate on top of his music, rather than losing himself IN the music and the program. He also seems uncomfortable with the interpretation, or "acting" aspects. Again, I just did not see what he has that Daisuke does not, especially since Chan's jumps also are far from consistent. Then at the gala, Chan's program was really weird. He appeared to be making it up as he went along. He skated around and did a couple of jumps while uncomfortably trying to act like an alpha male (he was skating to Muddy Waters' "Mannish Boy"). It was very strained and just did not sell. I thought it showed disrespect to the crowd not to skate a better prepared show program.

Diane & I poured over the scoring sheets afterward and just could not figure out where all of Chan's 9s and 10s in PCS came from, and why Daisuke did not score as high.

It was at 4CC that I saw for myself how leniently quads are scored now compared to Vancouver. 4CC was the only competition last year (IIRC) where Chan "officially" did not fall. He went down on his quad in the short, and it sure looked like a fall to me. But I learned later, because he broke his fall with his hands and knees and bounced back up, it did not count as a fall. Apparently one's butt has to hit the ice for a fall to be counted. As it was, Chan just took -3 GOE on the jump with no deduction to the base value.

One of the best things Evan said in last week's interviews about his comeback was that he thinks clean programs will win the next OGM. I know Evan will go out there with the will to skate cleanly when it counts most. That's what has been missing from the men's field and has made the competitions hard to watch at times.

I'm still scratching my head how Chan won Worlds last year over Daisuke. And I'm dumbfounded how Chan has been way over-scored, too. I guess he's the new *favorite* of the judges.

However...

I don't think that will continue because, correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the judges start receiving some serious flack from governing bodies about their sloppy scores?

And with Evan (and maybe Johnny and Plushenko) returning to competition, well, it's a whole different ballgame.

Yeah, SA last year in Ontario was abysmal to put it mildly. Yikes! It showed just how badly the skating world needs Evan (& co.) to get back out there... :skating: :skating2:

EVAN officially listed at Skate America >>HERE<<

ISU updated the list as of 8/15/2012

Excited to see Evan's name on the official roster. (new)

No other TBA spot has been filled as yet!!

I want to believe that clean programs will win, but I can't get there yet.

Evan, like Johnny, grew up skating with the 6.0 judging system, where errors were the difference between medal, and no medal. That's no longer true. Skaters are going for 'difficult' because the penalty for falling is often worth it. They throw in the quads, not really caring if they land them or not.

What stood out to me last season was the moment in Japan at the WTT when everyone was waiting for Dai's scores to be announced. The skaters (um, except Canada) were all gathered around, cheering. He deserved that win, as he deserved (and wuz robbed) in Nice. I think there may have been a riot if Chan had won that, too ;)

While I think Evan (and Johnny, and Plushy) are capable of skating clean, time will tell if that's enough anymore.

It's a pretty impressive list. I have a feeling Evan will be all healed up and WIN!

Well stated. I'd like to supplement with these thoughts.

Evan not only skates clean, he has kept up with the new judging system to make sure he has the levels of difficulty that are expected - for example, I've heard him say that he's putting 6 jumping passes in the last half of his free skate.

That said, he's right when he says clean will win imo - as long as the difficulty is there too as a given, which is what I think he meant.

Also, Evan last competed BEFORE the revised scoring of the quad - and other jumps. When if you fell, you lost ALL points. That is no longer true - as you say, skaters are throwing them in whether or not they are capable of completing them because they are rewarded in some way for at least trying. Not so when Evan was last competing.

I think Plushenko and Johnny are finally both buying into the necessity of skating by the new rules.

2012-13 should be the season of truth for all competitors with Evan back in the mix. He raises the level of performance for all just being there because others know they can't relax a second. That he is a force to reckoned with and ignored at your own peril.

ITA, Mary!

Evan and Frank are fully aware of the new scoring system and used it to full advantage to win gold in Vancouver.

And they both are fully aware of the new scoring system (i.e., missing a quad (or two) does not spell the end). So, you can be assured that Evan and Frank will approach their preparation with that in mind.

Glad to see Evan is still on the SA roster. Let's keep our fingers crossed that he'll be completely healed and ready to WIN with so many ELFFs in the house!

:skating: :skating2:

B) I agree.... I am hoping no news is good news and like you Ellen, he will be all better and back to conquer the ice!!!!!!!!!!!!!! With the Elffs in the house!!!! Is he doing the Champ Camp,? Does anyone know? And is it this upcoming wknd?

^^ All I know is that Champs Camp starts today (Tuesday), and supposedly runs through Sunday, Aug 26. https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/...641699919294464

I'm also hoping the injury is minor and that Evan will be back on the ice soon.

Btw, I've seen some of the pics from Champs Camp that USFS has tweeted but haven't seen Evan yet.

I think it is Takahashi who most respects Evan as a competitor, and Joubert. I know Denis Ten idolizes him and Adam Rippon gives him a lot of respect too. Abott and Chan don't act as if they respect anyone, because they think they are the greatest. At least Chan has the hardware to back it up.

About coming up under the 6.0, when clean programs were expected in order to win, Evan did, of course, Brian and Plushy did. I think Takahashi did in the beginning. I am not sure how old he is. Werner is certainly old enough to remember. The one thing that is odd, is that Jeremy is the same age as Evan, and you would think he would have experienced the 6.0 often enough to get the idea of clean programs. However, if you look at Jeremy's record, he spent a lot of time, what I think is an unusual amount of time for someone at his level, on the juvenile level. While Evan won the Juvenile Olympics 18 months after he began skating, which is really on the fast track. In fact it absolutely amazes me that a skater could be able to move that fast, considering all the tests they have to pass. Granted Evan did not have to train figures, but he did have to pass MIF tests, which have some elements of figures in order to learn edge control. It just absolutely is mind boggling to me. I think he spent two years at Intermediates (maybe not), then won back-to-back Novice and Junior Nationals. Then he spent a while sitting at the senior level at Nationals and the Junior level internationaly. Which, I believe, they are going to do with Nathan Chen, if they are smart, until he catches up mature wise. I think it is wise not to push too hard as they did with Weir.

We know Johnny started under the 6.0 and won his first Nationals the first time out at 19 in 1994, then started to have troubles after that. They also rushed him into international competition very soon, but that is probably because he didn't have that many years experience before he aged out of Juniors. But he definitely moved fast since he didn't even start until he was 12. So I don't understand the lag with Jeremy. Most kids who really become competitive don't stay at the juvenile level for years and years, but my point is he should have experienced both the 6.0 and the IJS.

I guess I am enough "old school" to think that expecting clean programs to win Worlds and Olympics should be the norm. It certainly had been before Chan. If you recall, Brian was leading in 2009, when the rules were more strict, and made one blunder of some sort in his program, and then had that dramatic belly flop at the end of his program, and that was the end of his lead. He finished third. I don't recall what Chan did except that a lot of Canadians in their goofy Dr. Seuss hats booed after his SP score Most of them really were expecting Chan to win because as one lady told me, "It was impossible for Evan to win because he had such a bad year." And Chan had the nerve to say, "It must be awful to only win bronzes."

Well, Evan became World Champion and Olympic Champion and every otheer champion with clean programs and that is exactly the way he will do it again. :thumbup:

I just spotted these tweets replying to the Champs Camp photo posted earlier today.

@DeBausch Yes! Wait, where's @EvanLysacek @RachaelFlatt & Madison Hubbell?!

@USFigureSkating @DeBausch They had later flights into town :)


https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/...9702400/photo/1

Here's another ... from Johnny Weir, interestingly enough. :P

Excited to skate with the boys tomorrow. @DouglasRazzano @adaripp @jeremyabbottpcf @evanlysacek @rossminer @richarddornbush

:wacko: Wow, that is very pompous of Chan, I do not like the way he skates, but then I am an Evan fan. I start to get very competitive and hope both Evan and Johnny will show him how to act. Evan is so humble and with his clean strong programs... and Johnny while flamboyant, I know has been training really hard.. Let's get the big boys back! I am really excited for SA and hope Evan is getting better :cheer:

Good show Johnny!! I sense that absence has made his heart grow fonder. Not only has he apparently been working really hard on his own comeback, this shows a bit of maturity and team spirit which had been imo sadly lacking earlier in his career.

Good to know he was on his way!! Sounds promising for recovery from injury.

Yea! Greatly relieved to hear Evan will be at Champs Camp! It must mean his injury was quite minor and he's still fully on track.

Good post, Carley, ITA.

I'm actually glad that both Plush and Weir are returning. I'm also hoping that both of them will be far more respectful towards Evan.

The sport desperately needs the *big guns* back to make it exciting again. After all, we have to face it: the US men just don't have IT. Maybe after 2014, we'll have some more fresh faces, but the current crop just don't cut it.

And now with all this exciting buildup, the butterflies begin to gather ... :skating:

From reading this and other threads here, I see I won't be too popular in skating-related discussions. I have kind feelings for both Chan and Abbott, and rather than welcoming back Plushenko and Weir, my wishes for them involve, shall we say, a long walk and a short pier?

:hide:

Not to worry. :hug: All views are welcome here as long as they are stated calmly and with respect for the skaters. No bashing allowed, and I know that is not your way of expressing yourself.

As for JW and EP, I agree about the walk on the short pier, but OTOH, having them back will certainly be a boon imo to the sport.

My objection to both Chan and Abbott revolves around their superior, egotistical attitude off the ice while recognizing at the same time their skill on the ice.

However, again imo, neither are consistent competitors and have been rewarded with overinflated scores that have really not been in their best interest in the long run. Has given them an inflated idea of their abilities and an arrogance and mouthiness I find very unsportsmanlike. If I can't respect the person off the ice, I find it hard to enjoy the performances on the ice. [That is part of my ambivalence re: Weir and Plushenko.]

My real argument is with a judging system that rewards sloppy performances excessively. As has been said by others here and elsewhere, skaters are throwing in quads and other jumps they don't consistently land because just trying them gives them some points. The last time Evan competed (and Johnny and EP) that was not the case. A fall on a quad = 0 points plus a -1 deduction for the fall. So ppl were more reluctant to put them in and thus the programs were cleaner, and to my mind that makes them better than the splatt fests we were treated to last season.

Have not heard if there have been any adjustments to scoring of jumps for this season.

All in all, it should be a very exciting, enlightening year for all of us! May the best and cleanest skater win!! For that my money is on Evan!! Bring it on!!

:wallbash: :wallbash: It is now day three of Champs Camp and no information on Evan. I consider myself a patient person; however, the constant 'no news' re: Evan gets frustrating. :(

I'm right there with you!!!! What's up with that??? :help:

ITA, Melinda. This makes me wonder if his injury is prohibiting Evan from participating. :(

This was posted on facebook - wall photos:

If you're not will to learn, no one can help you.
If you're determined to learn, no one can stop you.

I agree. Determination to learn is one of the things that makes Evan unstoppable!! On to Seattle/Kent!! :victory:

I'm wondering what the heck is going on with Evan, USFSA and Champs Camp. I know we've tweeted both USFSA and Evan with no response, and honestly it annoys me that the USFSA is ignoring requests for simple information. Is Evan at Champs Camp? There have been no mentions or pictures of him.

The USFSA is really working my last nerve with its treatment of Evan in the past couple of years.

:wacko: ITA with all of you.... just a tidbit of news would go a long way!!!!!!!!! I tend to agree with "no news is good news", but................ We are all going crazy :cryoutloud: WE NEED SOME GOOD NEWS :-D

Mine too!! Shameful! and unjust!!!

Extends to his fans too, by association. And even overflows to skating fans in general as well. Total disrespect to all.

The lack of information on Evan has been maddening. I'm thinking he's not at Champs Camp at all, and I have no explanation as to why. Alissa Czisny is there, even though she can't skate yet because of recent surgery.

I just read some really puzzling statements from Jeremy Abbott that also seem to indicate Evan is not at Champs Camp. (Emphasis added by me.)

One, or rather two, factors that won't influence his approach: the competitive returns of Olympic champion Evan Lysacek and fellow three-time U.S. champion Johnny Weir.

"It's just one, or I guess if they both come back, two more people to contend with," Abbott said. "Our [U.S.] men haven't been shy on talent. I don't think it's going to be any harder or easier to maintain my spot than it has been in other years."

Why would Jeremy make that statement about "just one" coming back? He seems to be unaware of Evan's comeback plans, or perhaps not taking them seriously. Which I don't understand, considering they are both slated to compete at Skate America.

I just don't know what to make of all this. :cryoutloud:

ETA: Jeremy Abbott interview on icenetwork.com: LINK

Finally!

https://twitter.com/USFigureSkating/status/...6/photo/1/large

I was just going to post the same thing! Since he is there I really don’t know what all the radio silence was about, then, but at least I can stop worrying about possible injuries and mysteries and maybe concentrate on getting some work done at work today. (I think this is the one place I can say that and people won’t think I’m crazy. Hopefully.) ;)

Whew! Glad to finally see evidence of Evan at Champs Camp, although I still find it puzzling we haven't heard anything about him skating. Icenetwork has had program news for all of the other male skaters. It's possible Evan is still recovering from an injury. If so, I hope he'll have another chance to have his programs evaluated & to get feedback from the judges.

It WAS reassuring to see no visible evidence of a cast, brace, large bandage, etc. :lol2: I suppose the jacket could be hiding something. Evan's legs are so slender, I don't think you could hide a cast under his jeans without producing a bulge! ;)

Sorry if my last post was excessively whiny. Having the sudden rush of euphoria upon hearing Evan's comeback announcement, followed immediately by three days of disappointment re: Champs Camp and the Evan news "blackout," was pretty hard to take!

I just HOPE I can make it to Sochi without losing my mind! :hide: :lol:

I agree that it's good to see no brace, boot or cast. Hopefully, Evan's injury is/was very minor.

Nope - we don't think you're crazy. We all feel the very same way. That's what being an ELFF is all about. :grouphug:

On Monday, I tweeted USFS asking if Evan would be at Champs Camp and was a little surprised they didn't tweet me back. How rude! :lol2:

By Thursday, I was starting to picture Evan in a full body cast ala Puffy the dog in There's Something About Mary!

So, yes, Matryoshka, I too am glad there's a place where people won't think we're crazy, or alternately, where we can all freak out and be crazy together! :)

:goodpost:

I'm ROTFLMAO!

:thankyou: I needed that today!

Thank Heaven for this forum. No one else in my circle understands like my fellow ELFFs. :hug:

At this rate, we're definitely going to be totally INSANE by time Sochi rolls around! :lol2:

:thumbup: but it's fun being insane together.