In the author interview in the back of 'Inferno', Aaron Allston says he's interested in Wedge because he's an ethical killer. What do you think he means by this ?

Wedge is a soldier - it's his job to kill, and by the time of 'Inferno', Wedge has been directly and indirectly responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of senient beings. Wedge isa regular guy himself, and is aware that many of those he's killed have been regular guys too - not monsters.

So when does he choose not to kill, what are the ethics he uses, and how do you think he copes with what he does ?

What I thought was interesting is that Allston contrasts Wedge to Jacen. He says that Wedge makes his kills the correct ones, so that the people he commands & inspires don't go down a slippery slope like the one Jacen has.

I take it that Wedge does not have delusions about those kills, and therefore he does not have to justify or rationalize them. In another thread, it was noted by others that Wedge doesn't sit around thinking about the moral consequences about what he's doing. He simply does what he think is right, because he has a clear set of values. He doesn’t do it because he has an agenda or something to keep hidden. Wedge has a sense of his responsibility and duty as a leader and sticks to it.

*shrug* I need to think more about this. Allston’s explanation is a fascinating one, and I wish that we could get more of his thoughts on Wedge’s character (or any Rogue/Wraith pilot for that matter).

In LotF though, Jacen believes that what he's doing, the deaths he's responsible for, are for the best, just as Wedge has always done.

Wedge joined the Rebellion because he thought that fighting the Empire was the best way to bring justice and peace to the galaxy. Jacen also wants galactice peace. He believes that once he's gained full control, the galaxy will be a t peace and will be a safe place for his daughter to grow up. Wedge also wants a safe galaxy for his daughters.

I don't think Wedge has delusions about his kills, but he does occasionally have to remind himself why they are necessary.

I think it goes back to the slippery slope Allston mentioned. Sure, Wedge and Jacen have similar (if not identical) reasons for killing, but Wedge drew a line and decided not to cross it. Jacen on the other hand re-draws the line whenever it suits his purposes.

For example in SOA on pg. 117 there's a scene where Wedge contemplates this very thing: how far is he willing to go?

"Final question: If General Cracken supported the local Intelligence head's orders, mandating that Wedge begin the slaughter of Adumari pilot-duelists, what would he do?

No matter how he thought his way around the problem, the answer came back: To do this would dishonor myself and my uniform. I would refuse those orders."

I think that's where the answer lies. It's a very different choice that Jacen made. Jacen is willing to sacrifice anyone or anything to bring "peace" to the galaxy. Wedge will not. That makes him an ethical killer. There's a line that he will not cross.

I guess for Wedge that the ends do not always justify the means. It's the more or less the same honor code Luke lives by. I don't remember what book Luke said it in but he stated, "There are times when the end justifies the means. But when you build an argument based on a whole series of such times, you may find that you've constructed an entire philosophy of evil."

I'll agree that Wedge has drawn a very firm line in the sand and a lot of what makes him intresting is how he never questions the position of that line, just the best way to stick to it. And the strength to continue sticking to it, war after war.

It's like he has his very own little ingrained Geneva Convention. There's a conversation in Rogue Squadron between Ackbar and Wedge:

"We know war is barbaric, but we try not to be barbaric in waging war. We hold ourselves to a high standard that demands we only attack legitimate military targets-- not civilians, not medical frigates. We would like to see this honor we demand of ourselves reflected in the actions of our enemies."

"But if they were as honorable as we are, we'd not be fighting this war."

As Alhana mentioned, Wedge has decided what he will and will not do for peace. Killing civilians is bad. Killing medical personnel is bad. Killing idiots is bad. Torture is bad. Assination is bad. Sending pilots to their deaths with no hope of survival is bad. Sinking to the level of the enemy is bad. Forgetting the cost of war is bad.

Another interesting question would be where did he pick up these beliefs? His parents weren't soliders to our knowlege, and unlike Tycho, Hobbie, Wes, and Fel, he never had any formal military training to our knowlege. Booster has his own little code of criminal conduct, but it tends to be a little more vindictive. Ackbar, Luke, Leia, and Dreis have all had their influence, but he was flying long before he met most of them. Perhaps they came from watching too many romantic war holos with his sister when he was young?

One thing that always interests me about Wedge is the thought that he has it in him to murder in cold blood - for revenge. Now, no one can blame a kid for going after the people who killed his parents as a diversion but... that's hardly ethical.

However, it may fit into the belief of what's "right" in this universe that's been war-torn for decades.

The way Wedge went after the pirates who killed his parents is certainly a contrast to many of his later choices. It could be argued that this wasn't done in 'cold blood', as he had strongly personal reasons for killing the pirates. Killing someone he had no emotional connection to would be more of a cold blooded action, I think. Wedge did have the option of leaving the pirates in a crippled ship for the authorities to deal with, but chose to destroy their ship instead.

Wedge can be cold-blooded in killing those who have already shown themselves to be indifferent to the lives of others. He doesn't like to kill novice pilots, who he knows stand little chance against himself, but he would be more than happy to bring down someone like Turr Phennir.

It's interesting to speculate on how this attitude has been shaped by the pirates who killed his parents. The pirates had shown themselves willing to sacrifice anyone on the fuel depot (Wedge's parents evacuated civilians before returning to detach the depot from the rest of the station), in order to save themselves from CorSec. In killing them, Wedge not only avenged his parents, but most likely prevented the pirates from doing harm to others in the future.

It may be the only time in his life that Wedge has actually murdered, rather than killing as a soldier does.

Astronut asked where Wedge got his beliefs of right and wrong. I think he got them from his parents. By the age of 16, I sure knew the difference between right and wrong because of the morals instlled in me by my parents (my Dad was a career marine and Mom was very active in the church). Gods know I got my work ethic from my Dad!

Wedge's parents were hard working middle class people with a clear set of values and Wedge benefited from the way his parents lived and died. Doesn't mean he didn't always follow the way he was brought up (killing the pirates); I've fallen along the wayside many a time but have always seemed to find my way back to the way I was brought up by both of my loving parent.

This is a really great thread; I hope discussion will follow.

PS Astronut: the following links are for you. The pictures from NASA are great!

http://www.texasjim.com/NASApix/NASA%20pix.htm

I agree that by and large, Wedge got his core values from his parents, but what makes him hold to them so firmly, in spite of threats and temptation ?

At the beginning of 'Tempest'. Wedge reassures Han and Leia about Jacen, saying that they have taught him right from wrong, and that sooner or later he'll find his way back. Yet while Wedge is capable of defining a point when right becomes wrong, Jacen can't do that. Both Jacen and Wedge learned strong principles of 'right' and 'wrong' from their parents and yet Wedge's 'family' (Booster and Mirax) are proud of him, while Jacen's parents come to think that their son should die.

Not that Wedge is a saint. I don't think he had any regrets about electrocuting Titch in 'Betrayal', but then Titch did provoke him. I'm not sure what Wedge's parents would have made of that.

Again, there's that line. He doesn't feel bad at all about zapping Titch, but he does only zap him instead of kill him and even contemplates having to take action to help Titch if his fellow guards don't cut the power. Causing pain to someone who provoked him: Good. Killing someone who provoked him: Bad. If Titch had threatened to seperate Jacen from Allana, Titch would've taken a lightsaber to the neck.

One thing, I wonder if it's because Jacen uses the Force as his primary 'feedback' source to judge whether his actions are Good or Bad? The feedback mechinisms Wedge has are what he thinks of himself and what his family and friends think.

On Demon's pictures: Currently wiping drool from keyboard. So pretty. Such nice resolution. *Sigh* :wub:

Interesting point about Jacen relying too much on the Force, instead of looking inside himself. I've said similar things in the past, about Jacen relying on the Force to provide his answers, instead of solving problems for himself He tends to use the Force to see what possible futures may occur as the result of an action, and acts accordingly. Other Force-users, and non-Force users rely more on their own judgement. Jacen seems afraid to do this.

Wedge, of course, is completely Force-blind, and can only rely on his own common sense, beliefs and experience. It's not always easy, and sometimes he wonders what he could or should have done differently, but he's willing to accept full responsibility for his own actions, whatever the result.

The poor soul does seem to have an almost over-developed sense of responsibility. At the final battle for Borleias, in 'Rebel Stand', he goes to take on the second squad of coral-skippers, knowing he can't survive, but knowing that his efforts will buy time for the freighter of evacuees to escape.
"Turning his back on the Armmuud Swooper, leaving her to be destroyed by the Yuuzhan Vong when she was so close to escape, would not allow him to live. It would just give him time to tidy up his affairs before guilt - the crushing weight of responsibility abandoned - caused him to find some other way to die."

I find that a very powerful paragraph, and very telling about Wedge.

He does have an over-developed sense of responsibility! The way he was beating himself up over that freighter more than explains why he's been a bit touchy about pulling out of the Death Star (and vice versa!). (Still love that Battleground: Tatooine scene!) But the over-developled sense of responsibility is one of the reasons I like his character, so I'll consider it a lovable flaw in this case. (I can think of real life cases where its an extreme annoyance.)


Here's another question:
Would Luke be considered an 'ethical killer'? Corran? What makes this description unique to Wedge's characterization? Or is it?

I think it could be applied to a lot of our heroes. This is one reason Janson intrigues me. The man's talent is in killing people. He has a natural ability with a weapon. It's just what he does.

They're not mass murderers. Depending on what side you're on, they might be considered criminals. But they only will take the lives they're forced to.

Think of Adumar and how all four of them had issues with the challenges made to them. Honor, respect of Adumar, whatever. They didn't have it in them to truly take on any of the Adumari pilots--until there was an actual fight to be had.

One of the lines that's stayed in my head most out of any of the books is an observation of Wedge's in, I think, SoA. "A typically surgical Tycho kill"

They're used to death. They're used to causing it and they're used to their friends causing it. They can distance themselves from it now and think about it analytically but they still have a respect for life and that separates them from the Imperials.

And Janson's remorse over Kell's dad? It had to be done; he had no choice. But even years later he was broken up about it.

Those are very valid points: all of them are soldiers, and all committed to killing when necessary. As you say, they prefer to only kill when necessary, and not for honour, ambition or prestige.

I think in the context of the GFFA, what seprates Wedge out, is his position as a commander and non-Jedi.

The Jedi have an outer restriction on when and why they can kill. If they kill for the wrong reasons, they risk turning to the Dark Side. It's rather like fearing to do something in case you are punished by a god. If a Jedi kills from anger, fear or hate, he may well be permanently controlled by those feelings.

Non-Jedi, like Wedge and the majority of the Rogues (and indeed, galaxy), don't have this inhibition. When Wedge opts to kill the pirates on the Buzzzer, instead of waiting for the police to arrest them, that's the kind of action that could turn a Jedi towards the Dark Side. Wedge has to rely solely on his own conscience to guide him through life, without having the Force to guide him, or control his choices.

When we see Wedge with the other Rogues or Wraiths, he is their commanding officer - directly or indirectly. He holds himself responsible not only for their lives, but for their actions. Allston refers to Wedge's struggle "to make each choice...one that will not lead those he commands or inspires down some slippery slope."
At the first fight of Yag'Dhul, Wedge is happy to accept the surrender of the defending mercenaries, and arranges for them to be transported away, rather than either killing them or leaving them to face Zsinj's wrath. The rest of the Rogues flying with him will have seen this example, and others will learn of it.
Those he commands may disagree with him, openly or behind his back, but ultimately, Wedge takes responsibility for what they do. It is Wedge's choice, whether to kill or accept a surrender, that affects the actions of the others. This position of power is what separates him from, say, Wes. Wedge has to carry the greater burden.

This is such an interesting discussion!!

I think Wedge, while he had killed people in action, had to do so in order to stop a more massive threat. What Jacen is doing is looking for perfection where you can't make perfection. If the entire galaxy were at peace, it would be perfect. But completely out of balance.

Wedge kills because they're clearly defined enemies. They'd kill him if given half a chance... he just ends up faster. But he's also smart enough to take in account that not everyone who's an enemy must be killed. I mean, look at his relationships with Baron Fel (although this is a very special case), Admiral Rogriss, General Vessery. (There are more, I'm sure of it) but he uses his brain, weighs it on a very well developed moral compass which he might've just picked up on his own. His parents probably laid the fountains, but I think Wedge made his own choices to what he considered moral or immoral. Plus he's been put in a role of responsiblity since he was 16. Even with Booster and Mirax, he's been in charge of himself since he was very young and the things he's done has probably given him the traits that really make his character shine.

I know a lot of this is just echoing what's already been said, but I think it's true.

It's a good point that Wedge displays respect to enemies who also show themselves to have a code of honour similar to his own. He puts a lot of trust in people like Rogriss and the Captain (name escapes me) he bribes to defect from Isard in 'The Bacta War'.

After all, Biggs, Hobbie andTycho were all Imperial soldiers, yet Wedge trusts them implicitly. He knows that being an Imperial does not automatically make a person a bad person. Misguided perhaps, but not necessarily evil.

Sair Yonka.

Captain Sair Yonka.

:D

So it was. He's not in the DP for Bacta War on Wookiepedia (neither was Booster, bizzarely, so I added him anyway).

You can tell I'm not at home. I have all my X-wing books by my computer desk at home, so I can look things up easily.

Question. Do y'all think that it's common knowledge among High Command and Leia and such, and maybe some lower-ranked folks, that Wedge killed the people who killed his parents?

I've always been of the opinion that that was something Wedge kept to himself. Even when they face Hask, Wedge keeps pretty quiet about it. Booster, Mirax, Corran, Tycho and maybe Wes, Hobbie, and Hal Horn know. I don't think he'd bring it up and I doubt it's in his file as I don't think it was ever official reported (Corran seems suprised about it, so not on his Corsec record). If fact, now that I think about, I don't think he ever told Corran what he did to the pirates, just that he and Booster found them.

How do you think he'd feel about that information becoming general knowledge? And, for that matter, how would the higher-ups react?

Hmm. I'd say that'd have to depend on the circumstances that it was revealed under.

For instance, if the sickenly cute and innocent family of one of the smugglers showed up demanding justice, I'd say Wedge would be resigned to going quietly with Corsec, his friends shocked, and the higer ups would be panicing.

If it was a rumor dug up by a sludge reporter, the higher ups would be slightly irked they had to cover up his mess and Wedge would have to nervously explain the situation to his disbelieving friends.

If it was Wedge confessing, I suspect the higher ups would quietly dismiss it under a rug without a remark and his friends would react with disbelief, shock, and comfort.

I think its going to depend on who is finding out and when. Those old-school Alliance types all seemed to have gone through (and did) some crazy stuff, and I think something like killing the people who killed your parents would be more "acceptable" prior to say, the Thrawn campaign, certainly among the ones who had been fighting for years.

If it comes out years and years later when the government is being run by politicians and not old warriors, well, I don't think it would go over so well.

I'm inclined to go with the idea that the New Republic and GA need to keep the idea of Wedge Antilles as a hero. If they could, they'd probably hush it up. If that's not possible, they'd spin it to produce a story about an orphaned teen risking himself to being justice to evil pirates, to make sure that what had happened to his parents would never happen to anyone else.

I don't think Wedge is embarrassed, or ashamed of killing the pirates. After all, his second encounter with Loka Hask pretty much confirmed what he'd always believed about the guy. If his actions became public news, he'd hold his head up and weather the storm.
(there's definitely a fic in this idea, you know)

(there's definitely a fic in this idea, you know)
This is the problem.

I was looking for something to mess with Wedge and asked Val for advice, and he mentioned this. Which is too much for what I was looking for but now won't leave me alone. *sigh* And Nut!! One idea was bad enough but THREE!!

If someone else wanted to write this I'd be much, much obliged because it would get it out of my damn head!!

*sigh*

I don't think Wedge is ashamed of what he did, but I think dealing with it in a time when he's risen to some stature (I mean, by Wedge's Gamble he's involved in Provisional Council meetings, as only a Commander), would be tough because.

And I think you're right, RB, that it would be more accepted based on the timeframe. I think that even if it were to come out after Wedge was a General, I think there'd still be that sense of, it was a different time. I mean, we all know Han's committed crimes and look at him. Not to mention he was, what, sixteen at the time? If anything, the blame would probably go on Booster for corrupting the kid :P (as Hal Horn proclaimed Wedge a "lost cause" after he'd taken up with Booster)

I think people like Cracken, Ackbar, Leia would be forgiven. Fey'lya, not so much.

This part of Wedge's life has always fascinated me because there's a differenece between being cold-blooded in battle (as Wedge and Tycho have both been described) and cold-blooded murder which is, realistically, what Wedge did when he went after those men. But that's a point I've made before. And now it won't let me go

Wedge acts on the border between combat and murder on other occasions. At the end of Isard's Revenge, he pinpoints the building that Isard is hiding in. She's in the city's (flight) training centre - and presumably not the only person there. There would surely be engineers and other support staff. It's a four story building, not that big, but big enough to be holding more than just Isard.
Wedge fires four concussion missiles into the lower floors, collapsing and destroying the building.
"With a smile blossoming on his face, Wedge brought his Defender around, and headed it towards the prison."

Wedge hasn't offered Isard a chance to surrender, nor tried to establish whereabouts in the building she is, so he can aim strateigically. He simply destroys the whole building, without warning, killing Isard and anyone else who might be inside. He's shown at other times that even in the middle of battle he's aware of what he's doing. The ruthless demolition of the training centre is more an act of revenge on Isard, than a simple combat killing. It's one of Wedge's more cold-blooded actions as a fighter.

I'd be hesitant to consider that on par with hunting down his parents' killers.

Isard had to die. She wasn't going to surrender unless she thought she could use it to her advantage somehow, and anything she thinks is to her advantage is bad for them.

Not arguing that it's cold-blooded but... I still see it as a military maneuver. Isard's had her chances and she's continued to cause the deaths of good people. She had to die, plain and simple, and it was a military op to Wedge, I think, which distinguishes itself from him hunting down Hask.

Edit to add:

Tycho explains it far better than me:

I wouldn't argue with the point that the best thing to do with Isard was to kill her. Wedge could have offered her the chance to surrender - but didn't. The decision to simply kill her, rather than trying to keep her a prisoner and take her through a complicated and expensive trial, is a very practical one.
Wedge knows just how evil she is, and how many millions she's killed, and simply wants her dead, rather than giving her the chance to indulge in the political powerplay she's good at.

On the other hand, while killing Isard, he probably also killed whoever else was in the building. As it was a military training base, most of them could be considered non-civilians, but they weren't threatening Wedge, or anyone else. Wedge isn't shown having any regret over killing anyone else in the buildng he destroys.

Killing Isard was a necessary military operation (as well as carrying a degree of personal revenge). But blowing up an undefended building with an unknown number of individuals inside - as acceptable collateral damage - is unusual for Wedge.

Didn't he do more or less the same thing on Thyferra? Granted, it was planned to limit the number of deaths as much as possible but...

In fact, I'd say that was worse. He did that to teach Isard a lesson, not because it was the last best chance to rid the galaxy of her.

The attack you refer to was not on Thyferra itself, but a bacta-producing world it controlled. Your point is perfectly valid though.

Yes, the raid was planned as punishment for Isard, and at that time, they didn't have the opportunity to attack her directly. So although the attack was planned to cause as few civilian casualties as possible, it's certain that some occurred as a result of the attack.

However, Wedge does take the chance to give a warning to the plant manager, telling him to evacuate and not to resist. He also feels quite strongly about the deaths and pain he's caused. He tells Booster to establish a contact so reparation claims can be made, and survivors and orphans taken care of.

In 'Isard's Revenge' Wedge shows no concern at all about anyone else who may have been killed or injured in his attack on Isard. Wedge had prefectly sound reasons for killing Isard there and then, but his approach to his actions - his lack of concern for bystanders - is unusual.

Possbily he'd been somewhat brutalized by his recent experiences - eg. the ambush at Distna, and being forced to think like Isard in order to outwit her. Perhaps that temporarily subdued his natual compassion for others.

This reminds me of that scene in "Clerks" where they're debating the ethics of blowing up the second Death Star, and if independent contractors take ethics and politics into consideration when taking a job.

Of course, Wedge's out of character moment regarding blowing up the building may just be a by-product of Stackpole's uneven writing in the book. Parts of it read like either KJA got ahold of the keyboard, or the worst hack-job fanfci writers were the editors.

I just read this part of Bacta War so it's fresh in my mind.

Even in the face of the destruction and knowing the death they've already caused, Wedge orders the Twi'lek Deathseeds to begin their run.

Are there other points in between BW and IR that show this to be some sort of trend for Wedge, where he's more able to put compassion on hold to do what he knows needs to be done?

I'd go with Jes on this one. They were actively fighting for control of that planet, so destroying a valid military target like a training facility is just good tactics. Getting Isard just sealed the deal.