Duke and I were discussing this little known game. We both had arrived at the idea that it would be cool if this game were to be remade.

If memory serves me right, the game takes place between Legend of Zelda (NES) and Zelda II: Adventure of Link (NES). The game has 8 dragons that descend upon Hyrule and steal one of the pieces of the Triforce. I had thought that they stole the Triforce of Wisdom but Duke reminded me that it was never said which of the Triforces were taken; it could have been the Triforce of Power or the Triforce of Wisdom. The Triforce of Courage still lay in the Great Temple, guarded by the Thunderbird. Link goes and defeats the dragons and regains the Triforce.

Interestingly, this seems to be the only game where a Tomahawk or axe is involved as playable item. It is actually better than the sword.

I would find it interesting that the story be expanded to have the dragons come from Calatia, the kingdom next door to Hyrule. I'd like to add that the main dragon had a human servant that actually stole the Triforce and delivered it to the dragons. If this remake had been remade back when LoZ and AoL had come out, I would have liked it if the servant had been the sorcerer that eventually deceived the prince into trying to get the location of the Triforce out of the princess that was the first to be called Zelda. I understand that some think this sorcerer to be the boss of the fourth temple in AoL. Anyway, the dragons would somehow be connected to Link's past and to an earlier game in the series. In my version, they would be servants of Ganon. However, I think it would be cool if they actually turned out to be created by Vaati. I have a lot of ground to come up with the story.

I'd like to see AoL graphics. I'm also working on a title. I'm thinking about calling it Legend of Zelda: Tempest of (name of villain).

Anywho, we were wandering about ideas concerning a remake. What would you do to remake a story and the game overall?

Some think the game comes after AoL because Zelda is said to be Link's sweetheart and the two games were released the same year.
But how could there be an ongoing war between Hyrule and the dragons if the entire Triforce was available to wish them away?
So interquel it is for me.

How would you implement the tomahawk in a typical Zelda game? As a sword upgrade? As a separate item that acts like a more powerful sword, same as Biggoron's? Or would you give it a slightly different usage? (Like say, being able to both swing and throw it).
Would you have only one for the entire game? Or would it be a dungeon item like map and compass? And if so, would you try to provide an explanation as to why it can't be taken out?

Don't let Tuf Pic hear you say that.

I still don't understand why you feel this would be better than the dragons stealing the Triforce themselves. Only to tie in with AoL's backstory? Or is there more to it?

That's a neat idea, but how? We haven't had many dragons in Zelda and those that did appear usually have peculiar looks and shapes.

Why tempest though?

AoL style graphics would be the way to go as the game is also a side-scrolling adventure, but in all honesty you run the risk of deviating too much from the original game if you try and add to much stuff into the remake mix. But of course, I say that even though I have given thought to remakes of the Zelda G&W myself in the past... How much of a revamp would you want to see? Would you, say, add an overworld map that links the various dragon dungeons together (AoL style)?

Personally, I think a LoZ engine would do just as well if not better. You couldn't scroll the screen nor could you jump in the G&W game, but you could use items (the potion and tomahawk), and LoZ a game with an inventory did have fixed-screen side viewed sections.


I'd definitely add an overworld, LoZ style.

"Spoiler alert"? It's a Game & Watch game! It can't have any spoilers!!!

Anyway, I think it's a bad idea, as I already described in your other remake thread.

Also, so far you only brought up "AoL graphics" (which was the inspiration for the original game's art already) and fan fiction material (even without taking into account that Calatia isn't even canon) as ideas to improve on the original game. Really, that's far from enough to justify a remake of such a simple game. Or maybe you actually want to see a brand new game that borrows ideas from the Game & Watch game? Fair enough, but you haven't described anything like that so far either.

I noticed several posts lately on the forums that tries to tie-in the continuity of the entire Zelda series together in ways I'm sure no Zelda game designer ever imagined even in their wildest dreams, and personally I see this remake idea as the next step in doing so by filling in the remaining plot holes with completely new fictional stories rather than plausible theories. I might be wrong, but if that's the case, that's going too far in my opinion.

Long story short, I'd be very interested to see how you would improve on the original game in terms of game elements and not just in terms of fanboyism.

Speaking of which, I already see suggestions of borrowing game elements from other games in the series. That's fine, but that's not what I would call improving on the original game unless the sum of their parts would add something that would not be present otherwise.

...geez Smash. Did somebody make you cranky today?

I mean, that's some major negativity radiating from your post. Tatanga is merely voicing his thoughts. He may have focused on only the story and said little to nothing of gameplay, but there's no need to bash him for that or call him a fanboy.

I'll agree that creating a remake with the intend of filling up perceived plot-holes isn't a good idea, but if he felt like doing so (and I don't believe that's what he wants) I wouldn't say he's "going too far", at most I'd say it's not something up my alley.

And of course ideas from other Zeldas would be implemented, the game is too minimal to be remade as is.

By AoL style what I really ment was that the game should just be the original, but with better graphics. Like Smash said, the original is already AoL inspired in terms of visual design so I don't see how changing it to something else would work. Keep the one screen, keep the limited movement - because otherwise you would be taking it out of what made the G&W game what it was and into the realm of being just another Zelda game. When I get the time I am going to have to put together a mock-up lol

On the other hand, a game inspired by or a 'sequel' to the G&W which adds more story might be interesting to see (war with dragons) and would allow for anything you wanted to be added without taking it away from the core concepts of the original.

Yeah you're right, I totally sound like an asshole on my last post. I must admit that I sometimes have trouble expressing how I feel about a particularly touchy subject, in this case game design, without sounding negative when I disagree with something.

By the way, I must point out that we're all Zelda fanboys already by hanging out on these forums, so I don't see anything wrong labeling ourselves with this tag. I, for instance, am even replaying Minish Cap these days and fusing kinstones like a madman.

Basically what I meant earlier that what Tatanga has brought up so far aren't elements that describe the game he imagines but rather the sugar candy on top of it, and expressed my doubts about the concept because of the way he described it. As I mentioned however, I would be very interested to hear more about the inside of the cake and not just its toppings. Would it be just the same old game with better graphics and extra cutscenes, or rather a new adventure with gameplay more similar to other Zelda games, or even maybe something completely original that draws elements of the original game as its inspiration?

Okay, glad we cleared it up ^_^

I agree, it's just your post made it sound like an insult.

If it was me doing it, I would take the game's story and setting, expand on them and apply the result to your standard Zelda mechanics; except I'd make the Dragons' dungeons entirely in side view, like the passageways and item rooms from LoZ, or the Tower of Winds in Four Sword Adventures, while keeping the overworld top viewed.

But Link is very 'full bodied' in the G&W game, which is why I would go for a AoL type set-up for an updated version of it. Remember Link's shield and it's position on his body are important parts of the game play. Although I guess it is only really 'in front' or 'behind' ... but still, it is enough for me to consider it as a more AoL style thing, with an expanded version taking advantage of more shield positions perhaps (high and low in front, for instance).

OR IS HE?


Sorry, I always wanted to say that.

I think in the G&W game Link is a little shorter than in AoL (due to that artwork and the fact that I consider it an interquel), so either graphic syle would do.
And yes, as you point out, the shield moves front and back, not up and down.

Good point about him being a bit shorter looking than AoL Link - a new mid-size Link would be good, plus it's not like Game & Watch Link can jump or anything, so the best gameplay would probably be a mixture of AoL and LoZ side scrolling...

Here is a rough mock-up of an AoL style update of the Zelda Game & Watch bottom screen:



When I get the time I will try and do the dragon screen

EDIT: Cheated for the dragon screen, but the all black background seemed more NES accurate anyway ^_^'

That's nice, looks like it could be a fun flash game :)

Where's the Dragon from?

Anyway guys, Tatanga has a problem: he keeps getting errors when trying to post.
Until some way is found for him to post again, I'll let him post in this discussion through me.

Tatanga's reply:

Very good question. Personally, I don't see how it would be much of an add-on to the sword. Even for a fantasy type game, that sounds a little far fetched. I would have it as a separate item found in the dungeons. Maybe give it special powers that would freeze up the dragon's mouth or something. It would be for more than just a more powerful attack. Or, maybe it should be an item that you might can keep. Maybe it would be an item that you would have to keep a certain number of hearts to use, similar to the main attack item used in the Star Tropics games. Star Tropics...I'll post about it in another topic...moving on! ha

Personally, I don't see how the dragons themselves could steal it. For them to be fairly large beings, how could they sneak up and steal it? I'm guessing that we may could use the Shrek scenario with having the dragon go freely about the castle... Perhaps Zelda is transporting the Triforce to another location and the dragons were lying in wait? More on this news at ten...

I had wondered if the dragons could be descended from the two dragon bosses in LoZ. If that was the case, they would be descended from guardians that were not necessarily evil but guard it due to somewhat civic duty. But if that's true, are these dragons stealing the Triforce out of more civic duty or for power? If they wanted the Triforce for it's power, why didn't they steal the other portion of the Triforce? (If it takes place between LoZ and AoL. If it was after AoL, why didn't they steal the entire thing?) Furthermore, if the dragons wanted the Triforce for its power (whichever portion it was), why in the world would they split it up? Was it more of a trophy for them and they didn't intend to use it for power? It seems somewhat illogical to split it up if you want to use it for it's powers. Or are the dragons afraid that Zelda, Link, or the Royal family are misusing or will misuse the Triforce, therefore prompting them to steal it for an actual good purpose although misguided. These are things I'd like to see answered in the game.

I like the word tempest. It carries that oldschool presence that is actually a powerful word referencing a storm. Kind of like the word pestilence being powerful yet pestilence wouldn't sound good in a Zelda title, in my opinion. I'd like to see the word used in something other than the old Atari game.

Ahh, a revamp. Perhaps I should have put that in the title of my post rather than remake. I'd love to see an overworld; that's a good idea. I reckon the next thing we'd need to figure out is what map would we use. Would we use the map from LoZ? Would we use the map from AoL? Would we use the map from another previous game or just make up our own? Personally, I'd like to see an updated version of the LoZ map. The dungeons, however, I'd prefer to see more in the style of AoL. I'm getting nostalgic now :)

Sounds cool to me! Amen!

Haha, goober on this end put spoiler alerts for this title. Guess he doesn't know when to add them or when not to...Just wanted to be sure

I reckon that is more of the idea that I was looking for even though I didn't phrase it that way. Maybe we could make a prequel to the G&W game...Maybe show the origins of the dragons and why they are intent on stealing and separating the triforce. Hmm...

That's fine with me too.

I couldn't have said it better myself (both parts). I have never designed a game before. The story could be so much more than that that it already is. That is what I would be better focusing on although I'd like to learn how to develop a game.

I agree. Granted, quite a bit of items and weaponry survives game to game such as the boomerang, bombs, and bow&arrows. That axe though...Perhaps it is a weapon that's main purpose is to destroy dragons very much like the Vampire Killer whip in the Castlevania series to destroy the vampires.

I'd settle for a game inspired by the original G&W. I'm guessing revamp of the G&W game would be a better description. However, personally, if I had to make the game as a sequel or a prequel, I'd make it as a prequel (follows the current Zelda trend, ha!). I'd like to see the backstory of the dragons. Why are they stealing the Triforce? Where'd they come from?

To be honest, I'd prefer to apply the story to a game that might not look like the original. Not far off though. The dragons would be larger than life. If Nintendo ever did completely revamp this game, I'd like to see dragons on the scale of some of the bosses in God of War, Shadow of the Colossus, and Castlevania: Lords of Shadow. I guess one more point I seem to be focusing on here is that the idea of the game would be more of an uncovering of the mystery of the dragons. While the goal of finding the Triforce would be important, the player would want to find out what is going on with the dragons. That's my take, anyway.

That sounds like a good idea! High five!

And now my answer to him.

But first and foremost TATANGA, THE REASON YOU COULD NOT POST IS BECAUSE YOU KEPT SPELLING QOUTE INSTEAD OF QUOTE.
That should solve your problem.

Ah, I meant replacement. You know, like the White Sword replaces the regular sword etc.

So each dungeon's tomahawk would have a different power?

Interesting idea.

I just figure they'd swoop down on the castle, set everything ablaze, tear off a couple roofs and snatch away Zelda and the triangle.

Mh... we don't know how old the dragons in LoZ were or how long they've been there. It is only recently that the Triforce shards are placed in the rooms next to theirs (literally days before the game begins).
It's a bit too muddy to tie into that.
I figured you had in mind dragons from other Zelda games (you know, some of the prequels, like OoT). But of course, as said, Zelda isn't big on dragons. King Dodongo and Volvagia don't really look much like the more classical dragons from the G&W.

I figure it's Zelda that split it up under their noses, much like she did at the start of LoZ.

The original story states that these were dragons that refused to live in peace with man and thus waged war. Hardly a noble bunch.

The map of AoL is supposed to be huge. It's not intended to be viewed and interacted with the same way as the other overworlds. At most, you could focus on a segment of it, like the Oracles games presumably did.

Updated how?

And on a side note, Nintendo generally makes the game first then tailors a story over it... which is probably why Zelda has been sucking so much in the storyline and continuity departments as of late. So i welcome people that first come up with a story and then want to make a game to tell it.

Oh, so you're thinking 3D? Or do you mean that size but 2D, kind of like garamoth in Symphony of the Night?

Glad you liked it... so that does mean 2D, right?

Glad you liked the mock-ups Duke - a straight up 'remake but with better graphics' would make for a fun little flash game :) The dragon is from a pretty unknown NES game called Little Samson.

As for backstories for the dragons, I had an idea years ago when I was thinking about remake/sequels to the Zelda G&W that the dragons were ancient enemies of the Goddesses themselves - the Goddesses descended on the chaos that would become Hyrule to bring order and life, but the chaos wasn't empty; it contained the eight dragons who waged war on the Goddesses used their power to imprison them. Even in Hyrule this story is considered nothing more than a bed time story, until one day... the dragons escape from their prison and begin tearing up Hyrule, seaking out Zelda and the Triforce of Wisdom. They kidnap Zelda, shatter the Triforce, etc etc.



As for a map for a potential game - I would go with an AoL inspired one, maybe using part of the map from that game and blowing it up/expanding it to give more detail to a portion of it like Duke mentioned.

If I'm not mistaken, we discussed that, but your idea was that in this way (being deities) the Dragons were able to stand up against the united Triforce and thus the game could be set after AoL.

Though I don't remember if you had an explanation as to why only one part of the Triforce is apparently stolen.

Given that Labrynna and Holodrum already took some, that would leave only North Hyrule (which includes the capital North Castle) or the area north of Holodrum.
Where do you figure the dragons would fit better?

I think I abandoned the idea before thinking it through that far :P I like it as an interquel between LoZ and AoL though, in any case. Dragons could still have pre-creation of Hyrule origin though - they attack the Triforce because it is a symbol of the Goddesses power, but are unable to destroy it, just break it up.

Maybe the Triforce that is broken up is actually the Triforce of Power and Zelda has the Triforce of Wisdom inside her, which is why they kidnap her?

EDIT: I do remember as well contemplating a similar idea to one Tatanga had, in that I was considering having the head dragon adopt a human form as well (I just pictured a sort of standard dragon-motif armoured guy).

I was originally thinking North Hyrule (the North Castle area) but it could be a bit to 'been there, done that' since it is a pretty well trod area of AoL...

I still think it's simply sneaky Zelda who broke it up :P

A very interesting idea!

But it raises so many questions... like why did this not happen in LoZ? Does Zelda subsequently hand it over (or rather back?) to Link in AoL (before or at the end of the game)? Are "chosen ones" even capable of willingly give up their parts? (I guess so since Ganondorf was able to make his come out in TWW and then it was promptly stolen by the king).
The only question that really poses a problem is the first. maybe Zelda was too young to be chosen? But she wasn't in OoT and TWW. Argh! >_<

That sounds familiar somehow.

I thought about it too... but rather my problem was: one would then expect to go into the castle, which may be a bit too much for a remake of a game as simplicistic as this (I mean, aside from ALttP, in which the castle had been taken over and was full of enemies, not NPCs, do you know when it was that we finally could get into a peaceful Hyrule Castle? Only by Minish Cap! ...well and in AST, but that was only in Japan for a long time).

Yeah I was going to say that there is implication in AoL that the Triforce of Wisdom and Power stayed with Link after LoZ since he just has them at the end of AoL.

Of course, the game was originally made before a lot of the Triforce mythos were actually created, and I don't think they really tried that hard when coming up with the scenerio to have it tie in all that much with what there was in the Zelda series at the time.

I never said it was an original idea :P

The first dungeon could be the North Palace - Link arrives as the dragons are attacking, seven dragons fly away, one stays behind to make the North Palace it's new roost...

Not necessarily. First, as you pointed out, the notion that Triforce parts could enter your body didn't come around until OoT (except for the Valiant comics, according to which it was Courage that was inside Link all along) and the mark on Link's hand has no glowing parts.
Then in the ending Link has already returned to North Castle and the sleeping Zelda when we see the Triforce reunited. Sure they could have been hidden in his inventory like all the other stuff he picks up, but it's just as possible for them to have been in North Castle for all of AoL.

It's quite the dilemma.

But that doesn't solve the issue: you'd still expect to go back to it and have lots of NPC interaction, more than I think this game would need.

Well, if it's going to be a simple game then it would probably suffice just to have the Castle just be the same as any other dungeon if you go back into them after finishing them - they still have enemies inside but no boss at the end. In narrative terms, the people could have fled and be staying away until all the enemies are defeated and the castle cleaned out (presumably after you finish the entire game).

Who would have thought that a G&W game would cause such a headache :cucco:

What if we add the Nelsonic Game Watch into the mix as well :stalfos:

That's a viable solution I suppose.

But wait... I just realized we -could- handle it the way AST did, only have a few characters to talk to and have most doors in the castle closed/obstructed.
It's a cop out yes, but if eben Minish Cap can get away with doing it to an extent, then so can a G&W remake.

Well it's really something that concerns AoL more than the G&W.
I always did wonder: had we been given free roam of North Castle (instead of just sleeping Zelda's room) would we have seen the resting place of the Triforce (like in the intro of Oracles) or was it with Link all the time?

Getting into AoL remake/revamp territory now but I have always wondered what it would be like if the North Castle in AoL had been set out like a town rather than just having the one room - you exit the Sleeping Zelda's chamber, maybe go through some corridors with soldiers standing in them and people walking around... it wouldn't really add much, I suppose, except for some local colour and exposition at the start.

Would probably just get in the way later on when you are constantly dieing and starting back there, having to walk through a few screens before you can start your adventure again.

Or both castle AND town, like at the start of the first Final Fantasy.

Excuse me for a second, but I'm trying to put myself as the player, and I still can't figure out how the game would be structured or how I would play it, mainly because the idea of a LoZ overworld with AoL dungeons appears quite incompatible with the G&W gameplay to me. Maybe you could clarify this to me?

Sounds like a 3D Link's Awakening with giant bosses. Is that what you have in mind? I would be interested to know more about the structure of the game.

I don't think we're talking about actual G&W gameplay any more - I think it has moved into just 'simple new game with dragons in it' - something that takes inspiration from the G&W game, rather than actually recreates it.

I think.

That's why I posted the mock-ups because I originally was just thinking 'updated G&W Zelda' in the same way that the G&W galleries on the GBA had updated versions of the old games - different graphics but otherwise still the same basic game. But the conversation moved away from that :link:

Yeah, same situation in a more conventional Zelda game.

No wonder I was confused then. Thanks for the clarification.

That would be neat. Maybe each Tomahawk carried something that was the dragon’s weakness on it that varied from temple to temple. However, I must say that I like the single Tomahawk version.

I guess it could happen that way. Maybe they were having a big ceremonial ball where all of the higher ups in the land are there and WHAM!! The roof is torn off with ease by a dragon! People are running around like ants on a disturbed ant hill. Total mayhem. Zelda uses the present pandemonium to quickly break up the triforce she has but is captured before she could hide the Triforce pieces. The dragons take her and the pieces; however, the dragons don’t have a clue about how to put the triforce back together, so each one gets a piece. They fly away with one remaining. Now, the human culprit would have to be in the mix somewhere here. Maybe the human ally to the dragons is the one who finds Zelda separating the Triforce and he alerts the dragons as to her whereabouts.

Volvagia and Dodongo aren’t really what I had in mind here. All of these dragons don’t have to look exactly alike; they can be quite different looking like the Colossi in Shadow of the Colossus. Volvagia is the only one that really looks like a dragon to me other than the few in Legend of Zelda. Now that I think about it, that game had a fair amount of dragons in it. Some had up to four heads.

That’s possible. Funny sidenote: I got an image of the split Triforce going off in all directions like the Dragon Balls did in the Dragon Ball (and Z and GT) series. That would be more humorous if the Triforce grants a wish and then has to be collected again.

Which parts of the Oracle games were presumed to be referenced in relation to the AoL map? I had heard they were going to be remakes of the NES games along with a third game but I thought they dropped that idea and the idea that the lands were connected.

Complete 3D overhaul. I’d settle for a 2D overhaul but 3D has more potential in my opinion. (Most of my favorite games are 2D, though.)

Amen bro! I’m a big believer in quality over quantity. I wish Nintendo still applied this to the stories. I have high hopes for Skyward Sword. I liked Twilight Princess and Wind Waker apart from both games’ ending. Flood Hyrule = terrible idea (King, you could have wished Ganon away, not the land!). Break the only connection with a people group you have just reconciled = lame.

Yes sir, 3D. I’m thinking massive 3D environments along with massive boss battles. I’d like to see a 2D version as well but 3D would be much more fun in my book.

Wow...I’m hooked! Keep going! The chaos mythos is usually a very enjoyable scenario in regard to it being conquered by the founders of current, peaceful society. Maybe the Dragons were not from the chaos but from the world that the goddesses were from...

I have wondered why we hear about the goddesses forming Hyrule yet have never heard about their origins. They leave the Triforce as their last token to humanity and then they go away. Where are they from? Where did they go after creating Hyrule? Are there more like them? Did the Dragons come from their world? I could go on for days but I’ll save it for later...

Maybe they could stand up to the united Triforce because they were already enemies of the goddesses...Maybe they were the bad deities of the world of the goddesses...

Sweet! The head dragon has a human form...that could work. I’ll admit that I had the idea for more of a regular person that is corrupted by the dragons but this has more potential. How can the dragon have another shape? This reminds me of the Lord of the Rings back story featured in the Silmarillion. Many of the Maihr spirits and the Valar had one beautiful form and one vile form.

True that, true that

Fine by me :) However, I don’t remember there being much story with that one as well. Besides the graphics and the method to play the game, what were some of the other differences with the watch game? Did it have a separate story or was it trying to put LoZ onto a watch?

That sounds like an interesting idea. Link’s Awakening is a good game. I just wish they didn’t do the whole dream scenario. Any time a movie or game that I really enjoy comes out and the big twist is that it is a dream is a no no in my book. This would be 3D and might possess the dungeons that were in the first game. Maybe in the fashion of Metroid Fusion where you will travel to one area and then later you travel back to that area only to see that some monster has trashed the place. With the dungeons being in the 3D, they wouldn’t look directly like they did in Zelda 1. If the game were to be remade in 2D, maybe it could share some similar elements with Metroid Fusion. Either way, the dragons would be huge. It would have to be decided as to where the dungeons are and if they are some of the same ones in other games. I’d say make up new dungeons. Maybe the dungeons are ancient temples built once to worship the dragons...I wish I knew more about design. I’ve never done it before. When you say structure, you’re meaning the more technical design, right?

That sounds about right. Now..., who wants to design it?

Yes, that about sums it up.

You're really obsessed with squeezing this guy in :P

Maybe it does. It's how we see it work in TWW. Of course, those were unusual circumstances and we've been told before that it sticks with you for life (AoL's backstory, ALttP) but you never know when a retcon might strike.

Labrynna
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/150/e...nnahz0.jpg/sr=1
Holodrum
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/7084/em...holodrumzm6.jpg

Ah, so just a graphical update of the LoZ map.

Agreed. Though TP had much bigger issues than just the lame dramatic twist at the end. Like say, being a collage made of previous Zelda games. Or being populated by zombies.

The same reason Christians are not told where God came from?

The latter. Minus Ganon and Zelda.

But LA was the dream of a deity, which made it real for as long as it stayed asleep.
And it really could only work as a dream given how zany Koholint was.

Not really. Technical design is more like "pressing A jumps" or "this is how Navi behaves" or "this is what the HUD looks like". Structure is more like "the levels are connected this way" or "the player is expected to do this to overcome this obstacle" or "this is what's going on in the village".

I feel like a :cucco: - I didn't even realise that there had been some more responses for this thread...

The Nelsonic Game Watch was really just an attempt to 'port' LoZ to an LCD, unlike the Zelda Game & Watch there really isn't anything to work with in terms of it being its own entity... it was just moving through dungeons fighting Aquamentus at the end of each dungeon as a boss.