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Title: Back Ground Graphics go above Char
Description: possible bug


RX_79 - August 8, 2011 02:55 PM (GMT)
I don't know if this has been mentioned or not, but when playing week 1, I noticed that when you move down stairs. The stairs sometimes go over the top of your character.

And when you pick up the pots and move in front of the torches. The Torch goes over the pot.

Is anyone else experiencing this bug?

Con - August 8, 2011 03:15 PM (GMT)
The stairs are well known, it has something to do with Euclid's code to display the indoors; he's gone and I hardly see a chance for this to ever being fixed. However there's also good news: after a while of playing you'll get used to it.

The torches over pots is new for me, but I guess the message is the same. :(

SmashManiac - August 8, 2011 03:46 PM (GMT)
Thanks for the report RX_79! :)

Yeah we were already aware of that. I think the top of the torches are on the same layer than the stairs, which would make these 2 bugs related.

RX_79 - August 9, 2011 12:42 AM (GMT)
Man that's sad, Wish I knew alot about rom hacking. Are there still plans to combine all four weeks into one rom?

SmashManiac - August 9, 2011 02:32 AM (GMT)
It would probably be easier to reprogram the entire game from scratch than to merge all 4 weeks in one ROM, so unfortunately no. -_-

Con - August 9, 2011 04:09 AM (GMT)
There's a lot of stuff do-able with Hyrule Magic. Maybe somebody can send a list to the programmers of stuff available in AST which isn't there in ALTTP and they make them available also in Hyrule Magic. Then it maybe would work to hack AST out of an ALTTP rom.

But I further think the hype about ALTTP is almost over and the programmers of Hyrule Magic hardly want to spend this effort.
However, I know it sounds strange and the renaming of srm files is sort of complicated, but this is also a different gaming experience and one can also like to have 4 different roms (games) combined over srm. This is unique as far as I know.

JamesBond007 - August 15, 2011 03:04 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (Con @ Aug 8 2011, 04:15 PM)
The stairs are well known, it has something to do with Euclid's code to display the indoors; he's gone and I hardly see a chance for this to ever being fixed. However there's also good news: after a while of playing you'll get used to it.

The torches over pots is new for me, but I guess the message is the same.  :(

I have very interesting news for you, Con. :)

This well-known stair bug appears to be not related to Euclid's Indoor patch at all! I made an experiment with ASTDE editor to remove some indoor objects from one room and test the stairs. The results are on my pictures. ;)

Upper left - some objects removed, stair bug still happens.
Lower left - full indoors, normal gameplay with stair bug.
Upper right - full indoors, Background 1 deactivated on Snes9x (ASTDE identifies this as BG2).
Lower right - full indoors, Background 2 deactivated on Snes9x (ASTDE identifies this as BG1).

Well, I found the source of this bug - on Snes9x, the stairs (as in-game object) are visible on both BG1 and BG2. The solution - the stairs must not be visible if BG1 is deactivated, but they still must be functional.

The "pot/torch" bug sounds similar, but I will check it out later. Maybe tomorrow?

Con - August 15, 2011 12:57 PM (GMT)
I think it is possible to draw the stair cases on one bg only using the editor. One can maybe delete the stair case on BG2.
If this helps avoiding this bug I see a hell lot of work coming up to Duke :P

JamesBond007 - August 15, 2011 01:18 PM (GMT)
I found more interesting news today. :)

By patching week 1 rom with only the base patch, using time cheats to leave the first room, and running two sessions of AST (one without indoors, and one normal), I made it to the same room with stairs. And here is the results:

This stair bug appears to be present in the original dump. Even without any indoors, this bug still happens (lower left). Deactivating BG2 shows everything right (upper right).

Unfortunately, second bug with pots and torches might not be related to this. Lower left image shows the bug, but after deactivating BG2, both floor and torches are invisible (lower right). @_@

Also, I have one question about the indoors. In every week except w1, rooms 113 and 114 (green house in Kakariko Village, former Blind's Hideout) uses ALttP palette, but in the original broadcast, this palette was different (kinda green). Why it was changed?

SmashManiac - August 15, 2011 02:39 PM (GMT)
It is a fact that the stairs bug did not originally occur though, as it is not present in the original broadcast videos.

Also, I believe I tried in the past to remove the top layer of stairs in Euclid's editor without success.

Can you show us a comparative screenshot of rooms 113 and 114 between the original broadcast and the current palette JamesBond007?

JamesBond007 - August 15, 2011 03:41 PM (GMT)
Here you are, SmashManiac. First two upper images are from room 113, first two lower are from room 114, and images on the right shows pots behind a wall in room 114. These images are from week 2, but I think this applies also to week 3 and 4.

I know that indoor patch changes palette in these rooms, because opening the original dump in the editor (with only base patch applied) shows correct palette in these rooms.

SmashManiac - August 15, 2011 04:01 PM (GMT)
Nice find! I watched the videos multiple times and I didn't notice myself! :)

JamesBond007 - August 15, 2011 04:14 PM (GMT)
Maybe I could fix the palette (but not the stair bug :( ) by making the indoors from scratch. Sounds very difficult, and possible it is. :)

Duke Serkol - August 15, 2011 05:30 PM (GMT)
No, no you can't... and I can explain this one.

You have to keep in mind, when we made the editor and indoor patch, we did not have videos of the original broadcast. So naturally when we started filling out that room and found ourselves with green tables, we freaked out.
Given how messed up our dumps where (like you know, missing the indoor layouts for the entire game), we came to the simple conclusion that this had to be some weird glitch.
After all, the house is identical in every detail to the way it was in ALttP... why would it change all of its colors inbetween the events of the two games? So Euclid painstakingly figured out how to change the room's palette and coded this in the indoor patch himself.

So yeah, the editor won't let you change the palette of the room. The only way you could do that, would be redoing the entire indoor patch from scratch... and even then you'd end up missing some very real and necessary fixes that Euclid did (like the inverted ladders in week 4's mole cave), which would end up doing more harm than good.

Personally though, I think it's perfectly okay the way it is. I mean honestly, who has green wood tables? It probably IS just a bug that went undetected by the programmers (like the missing Magic Shield animation in the other BS Zelda).

Rather what annoyed me at the time was that we couldn't restore the light coming in from the windows (as it did in ALttP) but that too wa clearly not in the original broadcast so meh (and come to think of it, wouldn't make much sense for light to pour in while there's a storm outside. Unless in those times it only shined brifly as if cast by thunders which would be pretty sweet, but that's not gonna happen).

SmashManiac - August 15, 2011 06:31 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Duke Serkol @ Aug 15 2011, 01:30 PM)
Personally though, I think it's perfectly okay the way it is. I mean honestly, who has green wood tables? It probably IS just a bug that went undetected by the programmers (like the missing Magic Shield animation in the other BS Zelda).

I think the main concern is not that this bug from the original game is fixed, but that we don't know why it happened in the first place, so we can't perfectly restore the game even if we wanted to.

And by the way it's entirely possible that the Magic Shield animation was removed on purpose. ;)

Con - August 15, 2011 08:59 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
And by the way it's entirely possible that the Magic Shield animation was removed on purpose

As it is possible that they gave Aginah yellow clothes on purpose.
those programmers were just lazy on purpose.. <_<

as for the staircases, I checked: they are both, bg1&2, whereas bg2 is wrong causing this bug. I am sorry, but staircases are not editable with the editor, so this bug can't be fixed by its help.
Though I once managed to insert new doors (in the magic cape secret layer), which is similar as with the staircases this is very difficult to do by hand. Maybe somebody manages one day that staircases generally are not loaded into bg2

RX_79 - August 17, 2011 06:16 PM (GMT)
What would happen if you deleted the stairs on the top? As you can see the stair on the bottom layer.

Duke Serkol - August 17, 2011 06:25 PM (GMT)
By the way, the secret passage under Hyrul Castle (you know, the completely useless one) also had a different palette than in ALttP, but we left it alone both because it also has changed in shape and because we had more pressing matters to attend to.

JamesBond007 - August 18, 2011 02:17 AM (GMT)
The same passage also has inverted stairs (fixed by Euclid), like in the week 3 (not 4) mole cave. These stairs dosn't have this bug (like the other ones), because they are not visible if BG2 is deactivated (on Snes9x). Maybe someone could compare these stairs to the other ones and find the differences?

QUOTE
No, no you can't... and I can explain this one.

I understand you, Duke, but I tried anyway. Week 1 from scratch. After doing this, I found only one bug - in one room (2nd dungeon), there is one chest which crashes the game (unless you solve the puzzle). Now I understand these "fixes" made by Euclid. In the "fixed" version, this chest does not appear until you solve the puzzle. Also, I know how these "inverted stairs" work.

Con - August 18, 2011 08:50 AM (GMT)
QUOTE
The same passage also has inverted stairs (fixed by Euclid), like in the week 3 (not 4) mole cave. These stairs dosn't have this bug (like the other ones), because they are not visible if BG2 is deactivated (on Snes9x). Maybe someone could compare these stairs to the other ones and find the differences?

Well this ain't so easy. Tiles are generally loaded into vram and from there they are loaded into the specific layer (sprite, bg1-3...) to build up a screen by a map.
This map directs the tiles to be loaded to this or that part of the screen. Technically, to fix this bug by hand it is necessary to remove the stairs in each bg2 map present in the rom... which might be a bitch of work.

Better idea: we find somebody capable of modifying Euclid's editor (maybe Euclid his very self, the staff of Hyrule Magic, or even maybe SM can help) so that the stairs can be altered by the editor as every other tile can also be. Then it is very simple to remove each stair in bg2. As far I know Euclid also left a documentation for his editor that might be handy.

Duke Serkol - August 18, 2011 12:28 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (JamesBond007 @ Aug 18 2011, 04:17 AM)
The same passage also has inverted stairs (fixed by Euclid), like in the week 3 (not 4) mole cave.

Ah yes, week3, my mistake.

QUOTE (JamesBond007 @ Aug 18 2011, 04:17 AM)
I understand you, Duke, but I tried anyway. Week 1 from scratch.

Wow... you really like green tables that much?

QUOTE (JamesBond007 @ Aug 18 2011, 04:17 AM)
After doing this, I found only one bug - in one room (2nd dungeon), there is one chest which crashes the game (unless you solve the puzzle).

Yes, that's also something Euclid had to fix. There's another chest too with the same issue in dungeon 4, week2.

QUOTE (Con @ Aug 18 2011, 10:50 AM)
As far I know Euclid also left a documentation for his editor that might be handy.

He did, as well as the source code.

MadHatter - August 18, 2011 03:09 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Duke Serkol @ Aug 18 2011, 01:28 PM)
QUOTE (JamesBond007 @ Aug 18 2011, 04:17 AM)
I understand you, Duke, but I tried anyway. Week 1 from scratch.

Wow... you really like green tables that much?

If that's the way it was in the original ROM file then I'm in favor of it as well. I've never been happy about changing the code to "correct" Nintendo's "errors," though, or to match what we consider to be better unless it enhances functionality (like an English patch) or unless it is a special just-for-fun edition (like Con's MQ).

Just to make sure, though, this is actually how it is in the ROM file, right? It's not just that the video recorded it with a slightly green hue, right?

And as long as we're discussing differences between our code and the original, I've noticed a few bugs in the broadcast videos that I don't believe appear in our version. Notably, in the AST playthrough in week 4 at 18:31, a bomb blows open a wall but no hole appears so the wall still appears solid. Also, another quirk seems to occur at 18:34 where spikes don't hurt Link in the boss area (Trinexx' arena).

KiddoCabbusses - August 18, 2011 03:13 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (MadHatter @ Aug 18 2011, 04:09 PM)
Just to make sure, though, this is actually how it is in the ROM file, right? It's not just that the video recorded it with a slightly green hue, right?

A "Slightly green hue" wouldn't change a brown table green, no matter how hard it tries.

That being said, this is something I haven't noticed until now. I'd assume putting back in the original colors shouldn't be that hard. I hope it can be done soon. Arguments about Nintendo being lazy/releasing a bugged game aside, we can't go all George Lucas on the ROM.

MadHatter - August 18, 2011 03:21 PM (GMT)
Maybe "slightly" was the wrong word, but I know it can happen. I had an old CRT TV whose "red fuse" got worse and worse and finally blew. The image became greener and greener as time went on until brown (=red+green) became only green. I imagine this could potentially happen for any RGB-display TV like those from the 1990s.

What I'm interested in, though, is whether the color definitions in the game's actual code are different from those of ALttP rather than it being simply a display issue having to do with the monitor and not the game.

KiddoCabbusses - August 18, 2011 08:15 PM (GMT)
The colors do not seem to be different in many other places in the video, and it's been said that the palettes in that area had that green in the code originally, so I have every reason to believe that the video has the original colors as they were in the game.

This wouldn't have been the only place where the colors looked a tad on the strange side, after all.

Con - August 18, 2011 09:58 PM (GMT)
My personal believe is that the stairs should be a more urgent bug to fix, but essentially I give you right with the "sticking to original". However, don't rely so much on the video with the non-bombable wall and the spikes, the bomb also could have been deplaced - in any case I think original is that the bomb crashes the wall and the spike do hurt the mascott.

Myself I can only wish you luck fixing this bug, changing the palette or whatsoever, because I am really retired now and only make consultant advices from now on (except something really, really, really is catching my eye as such with the random mole was).

Duke Serkol - August 18, 2011 11:56 PM (GMT)
Mph... this was so clearly a mistake. There's no reason those rooms should be in any colors different than those in ALttP.

I'd really rather not undo the work Euclid's put into fixing a glitch.

MadHatter - August 19, 2011 03:07 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (KiddoCabbusses @ Aug 18 2011, 09:15 PM)
it's been said that the palettes in that area had that green in the code originally, so I have every reason to believe that the video has the original colors as they were in the game.
Yeah I just wanted to make double sure.

QUOTE (Con @ Aug 18 2011, 10:58 PM)
the bomb also could have been deplaced
But then the avatar walks through the wall where the hole should be... It looks like he's using a cheat. There's definitely something weird going on.
Here's a link to the part I'm talking about: Weird bomb.
The other weird thing can be seen here: Weird spikes. Note how the player actually showcases the spike thing by pressing against them repeatedly. It looks like he's trying to illustrate the bug/error to the viewer maybe.

QUOTE (Duke Serkol @ Aug 19 2011, 12:56 AM)
I'd really rather not undo the work Euclid's put into fixing a glitch.
But nobody's asking you to. JB007 was trying to do this project by himself. I think he's right to try if it's closer to the original. I'd rather have an official version with original errors in place than one that was "fixed" by fans even if they did so with the best of intentions. A repaired version would be cool too but I'd prefer it as an extra patch, not as the official version. Just to use an easy example, I'd rather play a version of Zelda that says "Ones who does not have Triforce can't go in" than one in which the English has been "fixed" by fans. It doesn't matter that the fixed version is better. The historical idiosyncrasies should be embraced in my view, not censored.

Duke Serkol - August 19, 2011 11:38 AM (GMT)
Mh... let's put it this way: if you guys can change the indoor patch back to the original palette and concurrently have an additional patch that fixes it to the way it should look (as it is now), then I'll be happy with that.

But the prepatched game up for download should already have both applied, just like the other BS Zelda already has the Magic Shield animation patch applied to it.

Con - August 19, 2011 11:42 AM (GMT)
well, I think this discussion is kind of stupid. It can be compared to the magic shield animation frames, which I fixed to work. If you wanna have a green table and be on the original side, then go for it, I am also happy with the brown one.

I looked at the videos. The non-breaking wall is a glitch which is luckily fixed in the dump we have. The spikes might be on purpose that they don't hurt anymore as soon the boss is finished. Dunno if the spikes in our restoration do hurt.

JamesBond007 - August 19, 2011 12:48 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Duke Serkol @ Aug 19 2011, 12:38 PM)
Mh... let's put it this way: if you guys can change the indoor patch back to the original palette and concurrently have an additional patch that fixes it to the way it should look (as it is now), then I'll be happy with that.

This will be the best solution. I can make two versions. I'm thinking about doing the same to the castle secret passage (currently it has new palette, but I need to figure out how to change it to make ALttP-like version).

BTW, I have another question about the indoors - are these Euclid's fixes (to fix chests, inverted stairs, etc.) available as separate patches? If they are available, then my work will be way easier. If not, then my work will be difficult and not guaranteed to accomplish.

Duke Serkol - August 19, 2011 02:29 PM (GMT)
Unfortunately no, those fixes were all worked directly into the indoor patch.

SmashManiac - August 19, 2011 03:08 PM (GMT)
The "weird" spikes is normal. It occurs in our dump and it also occurs in ALttP if I remember correctly.

As for the weird bomb and the green room, it's indeed possible that they were already fixed in the dump we have. Notice how the game freezes for a second when the bomb explode; I've never seen that happen before.

KiddoCabbusses - August 19, 2011 06:03 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Con @ Aug 19 2011, 12:42 PM)
well, I think this discussion is kind of stupid.

Regardless of your feelings on the matter, I think it's a bit extreme to consider the perspective of the more preservationist side of things as "stupid". (And that's putting it politely.)

I brought up the name of George Lucas for a very good reason. Can you guys all remember why the "Star Wars Special Editions" are so controversial? Or why a large amount of "remastered" video releases are controversial? Have you ever read this article or The TVTropes page it spawned? While this is already a digital product and not hand-drawn animation, it still goes to say that in this instance we're basically making an alteration to the game "just because", so it's very easy to see why a preservationist would not like that.

And on top of all that, the one other thing that makes this different is that we have no actual claim to ownership of the product in question. We can't really say for sure that it wasn't the original intent for the wooden tables to be green, and it's not even like they look all that bad colored in that palette.

JamesBond007 - August 19, 2011 06:41 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Duke Serkol @ Aug 19 2011, 03:29 PM)
Unfortunately no, those fixes were all worked directly into the indoor patch.

That's bad, but I will try to separate them by doing these things:
- patching the roms with base and indoors patches.
- clearing the indoors (making all rooms black).
- making the patch in Lunar IPS by comparing two roms (with only the base patch and with "cleared" indoors).
Unfortunately, I won't be able to separate palette change in rooms 113 and 114 (w2-4) by doing this, but I will try to find it later with hex editor.

There is almost nothing to do with week 1, but I found few imperfections in few rooms (badly drawn tiles). They are not visible during gameplay, because they are covered with pots.

Update: I tried to separate the fixes, but failed - created patch glitches the indoors into pieces. :(

RX_79 - August 19, 2011 10:39 PM (GMT)
The bombing wall bug in the video, might be a result of a frame rate issue.

Some times recording devices dont pick up flashing images correctly.

AVGN talks about it in episode 102.

http://cinemassacre.com/2011/07/06/the-mak...ideo-game-nerd/

SmashManiac - August 19, 2011 11:40 PM (GMT)
I thought about it too but this is inconsistent with my experience with video encoding and compression:
- The game seem to hang for some reason just before the glitch happens, as if a door unlocked instead. I don't think this normally occurs in the game.
- The explosion completely covers the area where the door should appear, so there should be no afterimage.
- The crack tiles are still displayed during the entire time the screen scrolls, which should have fixed the afterimage if there was one.

MadHatter - August 20, 2011 01:43 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (JamesBond007 @ Aug 19 2011, 07:41 PM)
Update: I tried to separate the fixes, but failed - created patch glitches the indoors into pieces. :(
Curses! Thanks all the same, JB007. It's good to know that there are still differences between the version we have and the original. I think it has interesting implications for the question of how the game was developed and to what extent it was just a modified version of ALttP.

QUOTE (SmashManiac @ Aug 19 2011, 04:08 PM)
The "weird" spikes is normal. It occurs in our dump and it also occurs in ALttP if I remember correctly.
Hmm... Now you mention it I too seem to have a hazy memory that the spikes only hurt you while the battle is raging and that as soon as Trinexx dies the spikes cease to hurt. Their properties must change in preparation for two of them disappearing behind Trinexx I guess...

QUOTE (SmashManiac @ Aug 19 2011, 04:08 PM)
As for the weird bomb and the green room, it's indeed possible that they were already fixed in the dump we have.
This is a very good point. Considering that the game was broadcast and rebroadcast, there would have been ample opportunity to release altered versions with code corrections just like with modern online games. So it's quite possible that the bomb glitch and the greenness were later corrected by the original programmers in later canonical (i.e. original) versions of the game.

JamesBond007 - August 20, 2011 04:05 PM (GMT)
I found a theory regarding the stair bugs (both "character covered by stairs" and "inverted stairs").

These bugs were present in the original dump (I'm saying this again), but they were "fixed" during the broadcast. Sounds strange, but this might be possible. These "bugfixes" were transmitted over the satellite, but unlike the game, they were not saved on the 8M Memory Packs. Same with the indoors.

MadHatter - August 20, 2011 04:22 PM (GMT)
Did you find that theory in the last paragraph of the post immediately preceding yours? :P




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