I absolutely loved this TV series. All 31 episodes of it. At the time, it was the only show I really took an interest in the ratings, because there was talk of it being canceled the moment Fox moved it to Friday nights.

I first started watching it after the first season was put on DVD. I was looking for a new TV show, since all I ever really watched that wasn't comedy was BSG, so I downloaded the pilot, thought, "not bad." And downloaded the rest of the first season. (Of course, I have the DVDs of both seasons now.) I was progressively more and more curious, and by the end of the first season I was hooked. I caught up with the first half of season two on Hulu.com, then watched the second half as they came out.

Here's what I love about this series: (1) there wasn't any nonsense when a character would stop and give some speech about "morality" and how we're only different from machines if we don't kill people with no remorse like they do. This is why I hate Superman and Batman. They seem to think that killing a guilty person who would otherwise continue to kill thousands of people -- ie. the Joker -- is being just as bad as the criminals who kill innocent people. I've never understood how those two things equate. (2) the way they portrayed time travel -- with multiple timelines -- I usually hate, but they did an excellent job of portraying the sorts of problems that presents. (3) John Connor might have started out as an angsty little kid, but he sort of "grew up" and stopped being annoying, unlike most teen characters in film and TV (or Sharon on BSG ;)).

The biggest thing is the way they explored artificial intelligence. Even after John Henry was introduced it didn't become bogged down in, "I feel emotion! I'm a person!" It was a much more methodical development that explored areas of humanity that are often overlooked. The T-1001 (aka. Weaver) trying to figure out her child was always interesting, usually amusing.

I felt like most things were portrayed fairly realistically. Everything from Derek's death a few episodes before the finale, to the way Sarah dealt with the drama her son presented.

As I've said before, my favorite moment has to be when Derek pulls out the gun on Jesse and she books it. I interpreted that to mean he killed her, and with the series finale ending with John in the future and a separate timeline, I doubt they would have brought her back in Sarah's timeline had they continued with a third season.

I feel like we really lucked out on the finale, because while it was a game-changer, it wasn't a traditional "cliffhanger" where we're left with more questions than resolution. It worked well, and made me extremely angry at Fox and Warner Brothers (and the writers for that 4 or 5 episode lackluster "warehouse" plot in the middle of the second season), but I don't feel robbed.

A 13-episode renewal of the show would have been nice. A miniseries would have been nice. Heck, even a follow-up TV movie would have been nice, but there's no chance of that happening anymore. When I got the second season on DVD, I made my wife sit through it. She didn't care for the first season, because of its hints of melodrama, but she was more upset than I was to know that it would never be continued.

So what are YOUR thoughts/feelings/gender-changing-experiences?

Not the warehouse episodes you didn't! :P
Kidding, but yeah there were some big oddities going on around those episodes, mainly with Sarah having prophetic visions. Who does she think she is, Laura Roslin?

I don't know if I'm up to buying the DVDs. I'd like to, but I don't want to encourage Fox into thinking we'll gladly buy unfinished products.

Well, they did have some kind of "moral of the story" thing going on with Sarah's monologues at the start and end of episodes (like when she considered that if machines could perform art, commune with God etc. they'd be the same as us) but they were generally very fitting to the episode and not at all bland. So yeah, agreed.
...though while we are on that note, I'll take the chance to say I really, really intensely disliked the musical arrangement they kept re-using at the end of just about every single episode. Firstly because it's a sad little theme and that's not the feeling that the end of an episode should generally be giving me (occasionally yeah, but it was like no matter how well they did, there would always be the sad music. Take a hint from BSG guys, you open up with the sad theme, and close with adrenaline pumping ones!) and secondly because episode by episode it got increasingly grating.

After the series ended I stumbled onto an interview in which the author said they were going with multiple timelines that carry on independently from one another.
Personally though, I don't care what he said in that interview, that just doesn't make sense to me. How would people from different timelines end up in the same one when traveling back into the past? While other people from the same future timelines apparently must have ended up elsewhere (like for one Jesse remembers her Derek going back in time... but if she is from a later generated timeline in which Wisher is dead, killed by Derek in the past, where did HER Derek end up??)
Personally I prefer the concept that when you go back in time, you rewrite the future (so rather than having multiple timelines you have successive timelines each new one replacing the previous), a concept one can still apply to the show, but only if we assume there's a bit of a conspiracy going on about who actually went back in each timeline (not too implausible since Cameron admits to lying about important stuff and confirms future John probably kept secrets from her).
In fact, that may be the one silver lining about the cancellation of the series: I've got the feeling if they were to make a season 3 that focused at the same time on Sarah in the past and John in the future that they'd completely screw up the time travel aspect of the story.

...really? I thought it was the other way around.
Granted, in the pilot John begs his mommy to change things so he doesn't have to be a savior (as he feels he can't be one), but that is understandable. What's more, he is very active in helping to try and change things. Consider that time when he gets himself inside the coltan cargo truck. Recklessly stupid yes, but also actively heroic.
Then season 2 came and the emo hair was cut in favor of badhass short hair. I thought "hells yeah, this season he's gonna kick ass!"... and what we got was about 16 episodes of John hanging out with Riley, being emo and generally not giving a damn about helping the rest of the cast stop Skynet.
Honestly, I blame John and Sarah's characterization in season two as to what ultimately doomed the show to cancellation.
I really do think they were trying to rip off BSG with Sarah's visions (the extended T2 did have her seeing Kyle, but he didn't reveal things she did not know like Head!Six with Baltar. So the scene with the hidden box under the tree really feels foreign to this setting).

Yeah, these are probably the strongest points to the show and the reason it has more support from the fans than the new movies do.
Speaking of emotion, what do you make of Cameron and her complicate relationship with John? I've got to say, if it wasn't for the episode "Allison from Palmdale" I probably wouldn't have thought much of it, but that episode really does an incredible job in giving that plotline a basis to stand on.

Ah but even going with the multiple timelines concept, why would travel forward in time result in a separate timeline from the one you were in originally? I mean, when you go forward in time you are still abiding the principle of cause and effect, you are just swimming faster down the stream than the others around you.
Furthermore, and again according to the principle of cause and effect, the events that led John to going forward in time would have been set in motion with the last person/Terminator arriving from the future.
This is proven when no one in the future is able to recognize John Connor's name. If they'd said "Yeah right, you the leader of the resistance and I'm Napoleon.", then that'd mean John had ended up in a different timeline, one in which he had been there to lead mankind, but he is in a future where he's been missing, so it must still be the same timeline Sarah is in.

Eh, depends on how you look at it, I suppose. If you choose to believe that John still has a chance at becoming leader of the resistance and defeating Skynet then I guess he can stay in the future and have a happy ending with Allison.
However, I think if we'd had a season 3, they would eventually have him recover Cameron and jump back. First and foremost because if they'd hooked him up with Allison, Jameron fans would have put a siege on the studios (and really, it wouldn't have been as interesting to explore on the show) and secondly because 2027 (which is around the time he should have landed in judging by Allison's age) was supposed to be the high point of a long war, possibly the last year of it (in the first two movies, it was implied that the resistance would likely achieve complete victory shortly after Kyle went back... which makes sense, why'd Skynet muck around with the past while still having a chance in the present?) so it seems far too late for John to turn the tide.
But yeah, thank God they ended it there and not with just season 1. That would have left us with 9 beautiful but utterly pointless episodes.

Yeah, personally, I'd say the "lull" started with episode 2x10 ("Strange Things Happen at the One Two Point") and ended with 2x16 ("Some Must Watch, While Some Must Sleep") which wraps up the "crazy Sarah" arc.
Then 2x17 starts the closing arc for season 2 with all of its awesomeness.

I'm gonna wait until 2011 ends before giving up completely... but yeah, it's extremely unlikely.

Is "cyborg" a sexual orientation now?

Let me just say that I really hate TVbytheNumbers. They suck. I just read a headline that said "TSCC is coming back on April 7...with old episodes." They had my heart pounding until that stupid dot dot dot. Apparently SyFy has the rights to air all 31 episodes, and will be doing it in groups of four. Since Friedman shopped TSCC to SyFy after Fox decided not to pick up a second season (and they weren't interested), I know it won't turn into anything, but all the same: I like all the talk about SyFy doing this to test the waters for bringing it back to appease actual science fiction fans.

Also, I missed this interview that contains some information about what season 3 would have been like.

And I'm still hoping Thomas Dekker knew what he was talking about when he went around implying there would definitely be a direct to dvd movie (although I have my suspicions that the DUI committing teen was just wanting to be popular).

I couldn't place my finger on anything specific. They all just seemed really, really ... weird.

Here's the good new: Fox doesn't get any money. The studio that produced the shows is Warner Brothers, and since they distribute the DVDs, they get the returns. Of course, if they had been willing to deliver the show at a better price we might have seen more ...

Do you realize that Bear McCreary composed the music for both shows? (After the BSG miniseries, of course.) He doesn't do a great job with any of his other shows, really. Like you said, his music's too repetitive (and the fact that he's a total dweeb). He did a crappy job with "Human Target" (hence them moving on without him LOL), "The Cape," "The Walking Dead," and I haven't bothered to watch "Eureka."

I wonder if he would have done any good with Battlestar Galactica if the miniseries didn't have a different composer.

And with that, I'll have to continue my post later. Baby needs me. Sorry!

Oh God, I'm not sure how to feel about this... have you seen Sliders? The abomination it turned into after it was sold to Sci-Fi channel? I'd make a joke about what they did to Wade (and a similar fate befalling Sarah) but there's just no way to make it funny. It's simply too horrifying.

Well... that was mostly obvious. Only things we couldn't already tell were that, yes, the show would probably focus on different time periods (though considering the title that was also pretty much a given) and that Ellison would become a minister.
I've read in another interview that Derek would have been the one in charge of the local resistance group. Speaking of whom, there's one line from that article you linked that is a head scratcher: "it was before [Derek] went back in time."
That makes it sound like the Derek of the show came from this future, but this is simply not possible, because Cameron told us, and a flashback of Derek from the future confirmed, that John has been imprisoned in the Century work camp with Kyle from 2015 to 2021.
I'm going to go on and say he did not have things clear in his mind when he said that (it HAS been a while since cancellation and he's obviously put TSCC aside to think about other things).

Like Olmos with sequels to The Plan uh?
You know, I do believe there'd be an ample window to make such a sequel. Given the way the series ended it would be prefectly legitimate from a narrative standpoint to skip ahead a few years and join the characters again after they've aged a bit. I mean, Cameron's body is gone, so if she is again molded on Allison, it may as well be an older Allison.

Well, apart from Sarah having prophetic visions (seriously a warning that Cameron and Cromartie would lead John into getting spirited away after three-dotted John Henry? Where does that come from?), I think the problem was they went a bit too far in making the characters very, very lost (and thus got us, the audience lost as well).
That and there wasn't much action in that arc (mostly just Sarah), in particular 2x15 in which they see a flying HK take off and all they manage to do is stand there agape. No one thought it might be a good idea to run for cover, shoot it or do both. Not even the darn Terminator whose mission is to make sure John doesn't get gunned down thought the machine surrounded by dead cows could perhaps be a threat. WTF?
Then to top it off we have 2x16 in which the majority of the episode is actually inside Sarah's head. While an interesting concept, it's not a very good sign when the largest and most interesting part of an episode has actually not happened :lol:

Yeah it's kind of a matter of principle.

I know he worked on both yes, but I'm not sure if he is to blame. I imagine it's the director/producer that decides what the tone of the music is to be. If they told him "Make us a piece for Sarah's monologues, an arrangment of that one sad piece from Terminator, only sadder" then that's what he delivers, and it's almost certainly not his fault if they then chose to use that music at the end of just about every single episode.
Personally, I loved his work in BSG (mostly at least, not much of a fan of the scottish sounding theme that accompanied "touching" moments early on). I think the reason the music in TSCC is so repetitive may be because they did not have him compose more tracks than they deemed necessary (probably so they could pay him less) figuring there was no harm in reusing them over and over (hint: there was).
Why do you think he's a "dweeb"?

I've only seen the latter two. I kinda like Eureka's cheerful music but that's probably because the show is so silly that you walk in with no expectations ;)
Also liked the opening sequence music for Walking Dead, but I can remember nothing else from it so yeah, that's probably nothing to write home about.
Oh and... do NOT bother to watch Eureka. I only did because "Hey, there's nothing else on".

While you're there, I'd tell you to get the baby's opinion on the subject before writing the rest of your reply, but she's a girl so odds are she may not be into sci-fi ;)

I never cared for Sliders to begin with, but I think I get your point.

Agreed. I can't see a mistake like that making it into production. I loved the episode where Jesse found Derek's supposed torturer. It had me guessing about what actually happened (as well as Jesse's intentions) for a while.

EJO is really, really stupid. Great as Adama, and I'm glad that he had the "no aliens" clause put in his contract, because it really kept the show focused, but he's a terrible director/promoter/etc. I don't know if you've listened to any of his commentaries, but "really great" and mouth-made sound effects are the only noises they really consist of. The most substantive he got was on the commentary for "The Plan" where he and horse-face talked about how edgy they were with the nudity ("not for nudity's sake" when it clearly was ... and the explicitness wasn't in tone with the rest of the series, much like when it was used in the "unrated" pilot episode of Caprica).

Have you heard about his "ideas" for other BSG movies? "The Adventures of Adam and Tigh." It's like he's making really bad jokes, but he always means it. RDM also mentioned that EJO wanted the series to end with the Galactica arriving at present-day earth and the White House gives the order to blow them up. (The part about that I hate the most is the idea of a present-day earth.)

Actually, I remember thinking during the Season Two finale, "Wouldn't it be great if the series ended with them arriving at earth with several copies of the final cylon -- Roslin? I guess that's why I was most disappointed with the "Final Five" concept, is because the reveals weren't as cool as they used to be (thinking particularly with D'anna Biers). Clearly it didn't take long for Season 3 to demonstrate that the show was going in a completely different direction as far as tone, but it was a fun idea at the time.

That works around the problem I had with the idea well enough.

And the fact that this aspect of the storyline never went anywhere (or got resolved in any way/shape/form) makes it all the worse.

I liked it, but I really loved Roslin and Adama's theme. Then I rewatched Black Hawk Down and realized he used that soundtrack as a template for 99% of his themes, and was instantly less impressed. It sounds so similar, I would classify a few of McCreary's supposed themes as plagiarism. Particularly at the end of the episode when Apollo's just blown up the cylon base and throws the lighter back to Adama ... those Indian vocals are ripped directly off of Black Hawk Down. (Or the Sharon/Helo sex scene on Caprica.) But I do think he made the Roslin and Adama theme a lot prettier than it sounded in Black Hawk Down. The fact that it was so blatantly ripped off still kills me, though.

I used to follow his blog, and all the tracks that I thought were repeated, were actually composed brand new for the episode, just with a slight variation here and there. This was confirmed by my ill-advised purchase of the soundtrack (which has a total of three different pieces of music repeated for 70 minutes). The only stuff he ever mentioned Friedman's involvement in were the splendid use of that Johnny Cash song (in the Season 1 finale), and the revamped "Sampson and Delilah" (in the Season 2 premiere).

I blame it all on Bear McCreary. "The Cape" confirmed that he couldn't write more than one original theme for a show (unless he was using more successful composers as templates, or simply plagiarizing them).

His lisp, his mannerisms, and his ego. "I thooooo kick ath!"

If you watch him behind the scenes, you'll see what I mean.

I'll definitely skip it then.

My wife and I can both agree on Star Wars, Star Trek, and Battlestar Galactica (she actually liked BSG before me), so I think we'll be alright. ;)

Now back to the earlier post ...

It depends on how far back you go. At some point, choices are made to create the "multiple timelines," but if you go back before then, you can have people from different futures end up in the same past.

That's fair. My absolute favorite idea is that the past cannot be changed. But if you're going to change the future, I want it to deal with multiple timelines, because that's what makes the most sense to me.

If any show could pull it off, TSCC could. But yeah, it's a possibility they would have destroyed all storytelling credibility.

Good point. Honestly, John's always been my least favorite character, though. I hated Riley at first, but I loved the Riley/John/Jesse/Derek thing they had going on. Very compelling.

I think their relationship was more of Cameron acknowledging John's attraction and acting as his friend the best way she knew how. She's pretty vague on her and future John's relationship, so ...

True, but by Derek, Jesse, and company coming back, it influenced a decision that otherwise wouldn't have been made, creating a new timeline.

Of course, the thing that really screws it all up is skipping over T3 and how THAT would work.

At least Cylons and Terminators are. ;)

Well, if you know what they did to poor Wade, I'm sure you do.

Yes that was the last good episode before the Season 2 lull. Though it kind of irks me how they seemed to be going at the same time for evolving timelines and self-fulfilling paradoxes (with the ending in which Fischer causes the life sentence that was already part of his past).
Granted, I can assume that this is not the first time he's been sent back, but some people were very confused by the mixed signals.

I dunno if it really made a difference... I mean, I don't think the writers would have wanted aliens anyway.
Given the nature of the show, I think the only way an alien race could have worked was if they remained always a big mystery. Eseentially only letting us see their ships but never the aliens themselves, not even hear their communications, making it clear that they are aliens perhaps just from observing some of their technology (like the three fingers hand scanner in Total Recall). I could have liked something like that.

Shoop da whoop :lol:

I was really tempted to ask you about that... but refrained from doing so since I still remember what happened to a certain Mel Gibson DVD ;)

Wow... and here I was hoping for something in the same vein as The Plan for the last two seasons (showing events from a different point of view, perhaps that of the messengers, not just the main two since we know there's others, like Kara's Head!Leoben)

That'll happen in the sequel, "Galactica 2010".

Why would that be great? She was already prophesized to die before getting to Earth back then.

The very final one I'll agree with you, but I loved the way the previous four found each other.
...although on a second thought, the reveal itself I liked for the final one also, it's just her identity that seemed too much of a waste ("meh, it's Tigh's promiscuous wife"). Not that there were many fitting better candidates at that point.

Glad you agree. Hopefully, whoever holds the rights to the series sees it the same way.
Speaking of Cameron's body though... what do you think happned to it? The fandom seems split among those that think it got vaporized by the time bubble (much like anything on the receiving end does upon contact, you know, round crater in the ground and all) and those who think it was left behind, presumably along with John's clothes (since they were inside the bubble which is supposed to be a safe area and Weaver only said "it doesn't go through" not "it got disintegrated"... not that this rules out the possibility that it didn't get through because it got disintegrated instead).

But it did... the HK is sent to crash into Weaver's office making them all scramble downstairs to John Henry's room. It's even possible that John Henry decided to jump forward in time because of the attack (though he'd definitely already taken Cameron's chip for mobility).
And if you mean Kaliba... well of course they didn't defeat Kaliba, someone has to cause Judgment Day.

BTW, I wonder about Weaver's eel thingy... what was that about? A T-1001's equivalent of a back up disc?

Ah, I see.

O_o

Okay, I wasn't expecting that...

I guess we got real lucky with Galactica then.

Ah, I see. I'd have thought his ego would be in check since he worked with the Angry Video Game Nerd and I doubt he got paid his usual fare (or at all) for that.

That I understand. But again, before your favorite scene (Derek shooting Jesse), Derek asks Jesse whether or not she knows Wisher and she says she does not. Unless Derek is a complete moron, this implies that his Jesse did know Wisher and -unless- the authors are screwing with us, the implied significance of all this is, as Derek states, that Jesse comes from a later timeline than his own, one in which Wisher died by his hands.
Now the problem here is... Jesse remembers the Derek of her future going back in time... so where the heck did her Derek end up?
Only explanations I can come up with are either that her Derek went to a different time (after the arrival of the Derek we know or even after the events in the show) or that her Derek did not actually time travel at all and there's some kind of conspiracy going on.
But I doubt either of these ideas is what the authors were going for.
Especially because we have the same problem with Kyle. The Kyle John and Sarah remember came from a future in which Judgment Day was in 1997. Yet, Cameron and Derek who come from a future in which it was in 2011 also say that Kyle went back to 1984 from this new future (note: if John's first birthday after meeting Cameron in 1999 had him turn 16 that means he was actually born in 1983, one year before Kyle's arrival :lol:). But if this new Kyle did in fact jump back to 1984, wouldn't John and Sarah have known all along that JD was now in 2011? Did he go back to the 1984 of another timeline? Then how did Cameron and Derek and up in this one? Something does not add up!

Given what I just finished typing I wouldn't be so sure ;)

In the show or the franchise in general?

I believe this was most likely the case for Season 1, but that the car bomb changed things. Right away, she overrides her termination directive and continues her bodyguard job even though she no longer has that directive (meaning that she decides to do so herself). Then, after the episode Allison from Palmdale, her emulated personality of Allison (not simulated, she actually believed herself Allison and acted on the emotions Allison would have experienced) could have gradually intermingled itself with her own. Gradually there being the keyword. I don't believe in the time that went by before the series ended she had grown to have a full spectrum of emotions like her emulated personality of Allison, but I do think she meant it (in her own, still limited, way) when she told John she loved him while pretending to be Riley on the phone.
There are some dead giveaways that she isn't operating entirely on cold detached logic later on in the series. Chiefly in the last episode, her reaction to the question "Will you join us?" (making her upset, even nervous), the way she chocked on her words while confirming that she is just a machine and, most of all, the look on her face as she closes the door to John Henry's room behind her. This is the most important because no one other than the audience was there to see it (notice though that she also smiled at us in the pilot, but her character was changed completely after that so it doesn't account for much).

Ah yes, but all I meant to say was, John is still in the same timeline as Sarah, only at a later point.

According to the author, only the first two movies happen in the same continuity as the series, while T3 and 4 never ever happened and never will.

Of course, dealing with a time travel heavy series, it's easy to imagine that either the series or these movies happened in a previous timeline than the others.

Like say, someone (after T4) is sent back who deliberately or inadvertently prevents the birth of Kate Brewster, but at the same time JD is pushed back to 2011; then no longer anchored to any events in 2003, in the new future John sends back Cameron to take him from 1999 to 2007.
Or it could be the other way around, in the future of the series, Skynet manages to change the past (prior to 1999) so JD happens sooner (2003 instead of 2011) and this leads into the events of T3 and 4.

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense to have both. I think that's why the first movie will always be my favorite -- the self-fulfilling paradoxes.

I don't know -- RDM has never been my favorite writer, and I wouldn't put it past him to write some crazy alien scene and go, "we'll figure out what this all means in the series finale."

Yeah, my OCD and desire to be religious sometimes conflict, but I think my OCD drives a lot of my desire for religious conviction, so ...

Anyway, I don't mind how you can see through the "cylon bathtub" water at the beginning, stuff like that isn't a big deal to me -- just when they try to be explicit for the sake of being explicit. I mean, it's true that the entire series screamed "adult" but again with OCD: I prefer consistency in the level of content.

(Like in the extended version of Razor when Adama says "cocksucker," I was like WTF? "Frakker" is just more appropriate for the universe of the show IMO.)

I just think it's dumb when they add things they think will make it sell better on an "unrated" or "hard R" platform. I feel like the first Matrix movie, for example, would have made a great PG-13 for all the kids to see. But there's no doubt about the "adultness" of the second two movies with increased profanity and sex, which I think hurt the tone. (Okay, that's not fair: f-words aside, maybe everything involving Zion was what crapped it up.)

That would have been great. To be fair to EJO, I believe that was mentioned in one of his ideas, but this was already past the point where they'd decided not to make any more. But we ended up with "The Final Five" comic, which resolved enough things in my mind to make me feel better about it all.

Yes. This must be made.

I always had this thing about wanting Roslin to be a cylon, and the idea that she perpetuated religion and the sacred scrolls and it all turned out to be a cylon conspiracy is what excited me.

Okay, but Tori is just annoying. As nice as it was to see her choked and killed, I would have rather done without her entirely.

As far as Ellen goes, I was disappointed, but I feel they did a great job in how they used her character after the decision was made.

Oh, I definitely think it's still there. I don't see any reason to believe it was disintegrated.

I felt like there were so many details missing about the warehouse and the development of the HK. But I'll concede the point.

That's what really bothered my wife in the end. We argued about it forever. I'm more inclined to side with you and say that it's a backup of some kind, but I don't know what for -- I don't see any different "data" being on it than she already has.

(I also argued about it with a guy I worked with -- he told me it was Weaver's "bad" or "mean" personality that we apparently saw in the scenes on the submarine. It's completely absurd, but I thought I'd throw it out there.)

Sorry ... it's the baby again. Hopefully I'll get back to continuing my post sooner than I did last time 'round.

I guess I can see where you're coming from with that :lol:

Yes, it does seem kind of pointless, even silly, to go "all out" just for this one special occasion, especially when it has no bearing on the story.

Ah, I have to disagree there. In the first Matrix, Neo thinks he's on the right path and the movie makes an excellent job of conning the audience into believeing the same... it does such a tremendous job that we don't even raise an eyebrow when the hero chooses not to kill one man, Morpheus, and instead to slaughter an inordinate amount of people who knew nothing of their war and were just doing their job.
Granted, it was the thing to do, the Oracle had said they'd be lost without Morpheus and had thus subtly manipulated Neo into saving someone who would later on play a fundamental role... but Neo doesn't know the future, only has that offhand comment from the Oracle as his excuse for the decision. What if, gasp, the Oracle happened to be wrong after all? He didn't know her well enough to rule that out.
Yet Neo and Trinity (who doesn't even know about the "we'll be lost" bit) don't show any kind of hesitation, moral conflict or remorse as they go Dalek on the guards.
They've both completely bought in on Morpheus' speech about anyone who's not with them being against them (which is a philosophy most commonly found in fanatical terrorist groups).
It is only in the second movie that Neo starts to realize something is wrong with the path he's walking (something that most movie goers failed to understand and ended up rejecting the sequel on account of being "unfaithful to the premise set by the first"), that Morpheus isn't always right... and only at the very end of the third movie he understands that he can't win the war only by fighting until the enemy's annihilated.

So yeah, I wouldn't lower the rating of the first movie. Like I said most adults ended up buying in on the "Let's kill anyone who gets in the way" aspect of the film, not realizing the full implications even after the sequels slapped them in the face with them... imagine kids.

Actually, even I was somewhat uneasy with the sex scene between Neo and Trinity... though I suspect that may be because of the actors' performance. They just didn't seem in love. I could almost imagine Neo slipping Trinity a wad of cash afterwards.
Apart from that though, I don't understand why so many people are upset about Zion.

Oh? Cool! Did he have a proposed title for that one?

I see... why would the monotheistic Cylons perpetuate the colonials politheistic religion though?

No arguments here :)

I see. Personally, the moment I saw them appear in the future, I thought "Well poof, there goes the broken down body". This is what I thought for a long time. It just seemed silly to me that literally only living matter was affected at all by time travel, that the rest simply didn't go through. I thought it made more sense that clothes and the like would be lost in the travel. It also explained why the future gun in the pilot wasn't ever found.
...however recently it occurred to me: John Henry used that same room and time machine to jump forward in time. If Cameron's body was to be gone, it already would have been. Unless the first time bubble diameter was calibrated for one traveler.

Do tell, please :)

Oh and on the note of dangling plotlines... what'd you make of Cheri's lockdown?

Yeah, by back up I mean a copy of important information she has that would be left behind if something happened to her (less unlikely than you may think... a gray could attack her with liquid nitrogen and then stash her away in a fridge until plasma weaponry became available).

And what's your wife's theory then?

*rotflmho!* It's MPD-1001!

I shouldn't be one to talk though... the first time I saw the show, I got a little lost and wacky theories ensued. Firstly, I didn't realize it was the eel, I just saw this thing writhe along the floor and came to a different assumption. Will get to that in a moment.
Secondly... I thought the warehouse was Weaver's! When John Henry allows her to hear the call made on an unsecured line, her response is a very peeved "Someone made a mistake".
That's one heck of an ambiguous comment. When she went to blow up the warehouse I assumed she was doing a "clean up operation", so that nothing could be traced back to her (by whomever had stumbled on it, she didn't know it was the Connors). So then when the HK crashed into the office and the slithery thing appeared on the ground I went "Oh shit! She had a little bit of herself piloting that thing! She orchestrated the entire incident to make it look like she saved them and gain their trust!"

...I still think that would have been pretty awesome though.

Methinks she wants to tell you her own theory about the eel.

Ah, I just looked it up again, and it looks like I was misremembering some information from a collider interview. Here's the summary it was prefaced with:

Some other quotes from EJO's interviews about future movies:

The "Adventures of Tigh and Adama" idea I was referencing, while hinted above, comes from the Comic Con panel prior to The Plan's release.

I still think you take out a few f-bombs and nudity and the second two movies are appropriate for children. Granted, I understand the "themes" are mature, but ratings are rarely changed for that reason (at least in the US).

I was always bothered by the first movie's "killing without remorse" because, as you point out, they're all innocents, but the second one seemed like such a summer-popcorn movie I thought it cheapened the deaths of innocents further, leaving me thoroughly confused with a lot of the third movie's moralizing.

However, there was nothing unfaithful to the premise of the first movie in any of the follow-up media. I think the only people who say that just had their expectations far too high and were disappointed that the second two movies weren't the greatest films in the history of mankind. They weren't as innovative as the first movie for the sole reason of: the first movie had already been made. These were continuations, not brand new concepts in and of themselves.

Y'know?

LOL! My favorite parts:

Upon realizing Earth of 1980 has insufficient technology to face the Cylons, Adama sends his adopted grandson Troy (the grown up Boxey) to the Earth along with his pal Dillon. The homoerotic subtext of the original series will be front and center in this new series.

"Oh, there'll be flying motorcycles, alright," says producer David Eick, "But we won't stop there. You'll be seeing flying bicycles, flying skateboards, and even a flying Winnebago."

You destroy people's hopes and dreams for terrible fan fictions.

And I'm really, really sorry. The baby doesn't wake up unless I'm posting on these forums. I promise, PROMISE that the next time I post it'll address everything else I've missed up to this point. And I just got your PM so I'll take care of emailing you at the same time (btw, one of the PDFs is 7.9 MBs, and I'm not really sure how to compress it enough -- other than that, they're all below 5, so hopefully some level of compression will make it manageable).

Well, that is somewhat close to what I had in mind (after all, The Plan does start before the miniseries, however briefly, so a follow up could reach its conclusion after the end of the series).

Uh... hate to tell you EJO, but it's already been answered in the series :lol:
Unless he meant to explore the origins of the first tribe before they even left Kobol. But that'd probably require a series of its own.

...bwuh?

Oh God... he was thinking of dinosaurs, wasn't he? EJO is a creationist, you heard it here first guys ;)

Perhaps so, but as you point out:

Seeing the first two movies without seeing the third one can leave one with the wrong "moral lesson".
Though I don't recall there being as large a deliberate slaughter of people that did not know what was going on in the second as that in the first (note how the streets seem to be suspiciously deserted when Neo does his "fly to Trinity at the speed of light" vortex), but the whole point to the second movie is Neo beginning to realize that he needs to rethink his conduct, but not quickly enough to prevent a lot of stuff from going wrong (though of course that is part of his lesson too).

Seconded.
My only big gripes with the second movie are that 1) We miss out on the destruction of the fleet completely (after Bane triggers the EMP prematurely). That would have been a great scene to see and I always feel ripped off when watching Reloaded. Too bad it's not even in the game and we only get to see him as he goes to do it. 2) The movie ends on a way too confusing note. It's okay that the characters failed to accomplish their goal, but we don't even have any clue what they will be trying to do next. There's a teaser trailer yes, but it only seems to want to create hype, not give us any sense of direction. They should have anticipated the Oracle saying "You'll have to reach the source from another access, outside the Matrix", instead she just blabbers about the end coming. You leave the theater thinking "Okay... what was the point of all that exactly?" 3) Vampires? Seriously?

I have mixed feelings about their decision to abandon the idea of Neo using a "code hadouken". It could have been pretty awesome.

But what about time travel!? B)

:lol:

Mh... I'm starting to think she really might not like sci-fi at all (thus interrupting you). Or maybe she likes it too much and wants to participate :P

I think my account may handle that succesfully (the 8 MB file), it'll just take a while to download.
Thanks!

Say Possum... seeing as you are such a fan of the show, probably from a longer time than me, would you perchance happen to know anyone who's had the foresight to make a back up copy of the Evasion browser game?

Nobody's needed to ... yet. Of course, I can't figure out how to do it, but I would love to have it offline. Do you know how to go about doing something like that?

The fanboy in me thinks that would be great ... the human in me thinks it'd probably be terrible.

I try to forget about that.

Not upset, just bored with it.

I keep thinking and thinking ... I don't remember what you're referring to.

That there's more than one T-1001. Perhaps they can merge and separate, and maybe Weaver's a conglomerate of these machines.

This is what I thought the first time too, but I saw it was the eel. That *would* have been cool, though.

Another good point I hadn't considered.

I've always hated John in the franchise. I have to say that the T3 performance was terrible, IMO, which really solidified my dislike for someone now that they were more than just a "punk kid." Actually, I didn't like any aspect of his character in T3. And normally I hate Christian Bale, but I'd have to put the tie between him and Thomas Dekker for the best portrayal of John Connor.

Speaking of James Cameron movies and acting, an IGN editor once remarked that he couldn't understand why the woman who played the leading "Avatar" chic wasn't nominated for an academy award for best actress. I couldn't stop laughing.

I honestly think it's a matter of seduction that stayed with her from her relationship with Future John. I mean, I'd like to think that she has her own agenda, and whether it be "to guide John in the right path" or something more sinister, I think her "I love you" was part of trying to "seduce" John, so to speak.

Every time (except for in the Allison from Palmdale episode) she shows emotion it's because her agenda is being affected negatively in some way.

Oh! Thanks, I wasn't able to find that.
Well let's see...
EDIT:
I've managed to download every file I think... the problem is, I can't get them to work together, only individually. I guess each swf looks for the next one in a specific path (online). If we could modify them to look into the folder where I've stashed them all, maybe then it would work. Problem is, I have no idea how to do this.
Too bad, it may not be a great game but it was certainly better than that old Lost Woods minigame, remember that?
That and it IS the only TSCC game in existance.

Anyway, as far as I can tell, there's two ways to win and three to lose. have you found any more?
I understand this was to be the first of several installments, and you'd bring your items to the next one AST style. So I'm not wondering why there's so many unusable items (like, we find a gun with no ammo and the address to a gun shop... obviously in a successive segment we'd get to go there, if we picked both here).
However I am rather puzzled by the vent. You can open it with the screwdriver, but beyond that it seems to have no purpose (it's too small to get into and I can't use any other items on it. What gives?)

True, true... it's probably better that we'll get Blood & Chrome instead.

I take it you agree to the other two points also?

Ah, is that what bothers everyone about it? I see... I won't deny that those parts of the movie are slow and uneventful, but they did not bother me excessively.

That girl in Season1 that John was trying (and failing mostly) to hit on during chemistry. She was said to have gotten in trouble at her previous school and that her father had her on lockdown (would come pick her up immediately after school and she was apparently not allowed to see anyone outside of school hours).

Oh there certainly could be, if anything due to time travel. I don't really think this is the case though... I mean an eel sized Terminator?
This does remind me though of the initial concept for the T-1.000.000.

Glad you agree. Even if she didn't stage the attack, she definitely does come off as a manipulative ally.

So do you agree? Would you say it's likely a screw up by the authors and that the only possible in-story explanations are that her Derek either went to some later time or only pretended to time travel?
(And the same goes for Kyle too, in both Cameron's and Derek's timelines @_@)

You know, between this and Terminator Salvation (which also is set in a future that is clearly different from the one that the Kyle of the first movie came from) creating build up for Kyle to eventually be sent back too (essentially everything Connor says about him and the timeline resetting if he dies) I've got to think that either Hollywood just doesn't get it or that they are too afraid of publicly refuting Sarah's speech at the end of the first movie (about John eventually having to send Kyle back... something Sarah said when she thought she was in a self fulfilling paradox, before learning that the future does change through interference of time travelers).
...then again, you have to wonder, if in Salvation Skynet knew of Kyle's importance to John (and thus used him as bait) why not kill him (it's not like John would be notified and not come to the rescue...)? Unless (and this is the only way I see the movie making sense) Skynet actually is smart enough to realize that it would not make John disappear in a poof of logic, since this is a Kyle that lived a different life (and thus a different Kyle that can't biologically conceive the current John and is therefore ininfluent to his continued existence). Now if only John figured that out... :rolleyes:

Ah, I see. Personally, I'm with the James Rolfe on this. Having essentially grown up with the character, he comes off almost as some kind of distant friend.
In fact, though I will readily admit that the performance in T3 was weaker than the others, I'd have to say the only portrayal I -really- have problems with is that from the show's second season. I don't blame the actor though, he did not get to decide whether his character would do anything other than mope around.
...though it would have been nice if he'd pulled a Bale and demanded a more active role in the story.

Oh say, what are your thoughts on that movie, in general?

It's a possibility, but she seemed genuinely upset (at first, when Ellison gives her the message) and sad (when entering John Henry's room) at having to leave John.
So, I take it you are one of those who subscribe to the idea that Cameron wanted John to follow her into the future? (I'm not, I think she would have been pretty startled in season 3 upon finding herself in a world without John leading the resistance).
Or do you suppose this development was not what she intended and thus is showing emotion about her mission not going as she wanted it to? (But then if this is not a desirable outcome for her mission, why go along with it?)

BTW, I thought some more about the matter of Cameron's body after BTR. It's true that it is still there after John Henry left... but what of John Henry's clothes? Maybe the custom sized time bubble isn't so farfetched after all. Although on the other hand, it's also possible they were on the floor and were simply not shown. Argh.

Did you just File -> Save Page As with your browser? I know people who reconstruct these things, so there's gotta be a way. But definitely sounds overly time-consuming if you have to do it by hand.

I remember the Lost Woods game. I believe it's sitting as an attachment somewhere on these forums. As for TSCC, the game isn't bad as far as these games go ... it would have been cool to see it expanded. I followed a serialized point-and-click adventure (targeted toward 7-year olds, admittedly, but I still believe it's the funnest online point-and-click game out there) back in 2001, and it really impressed me as a great medium for serialization.

I don't know about all the ways to win and lose ... I've only played it a few times, and I didn't finish the first time or two, so you probably know more about it than I do, but I don't know what's up with the vent, either. I sat there for quite a while trying to figure it out.

Speaking of which, do you think they'll greenlight it as a series after airing the TV movie (backdoor pilot thingy)? Or do you think it'll stop there?

If I was to guess this early on, I'd say that the ratings will be good not great, so we'll see a very short season commissioned (probably 13 hours including the original TV movie). After that point, I really don't know, but those are my suspicions. I think it'll grab some casual viewers, but a lot of the franchise's appeal is dwindling, especially after the series finale and Caprica debacle.

I agree on the first point. As far as the second point goes -- yeah, the cliffhanger wasn't a real great cliffhanger, but I guess I didn't have as big a beef with it as you.

I don't know why everyone else didn't like Zion. Well, I know that a mainstream thought is that it deglamorized the idea of it, and that we just should have seen more people from Zion, instead of the actual place. Granted, if that was the case, they'd all be complaining about how it was a cop-out that we were never shown Zion. I didn't think that was the case, but from the boring, slow-motion rave scene, and the twenty-plus minutes of shooting at the "machines" in real-life Gundams, I thought it was a snore-fest.

Oh, YEAH. I always forget about her in favor of suicide girl as "that other girl John had a weird chemistry with." I've always felt like the writers wanted her to play the same role that Riley later came to play, but then she moved on with her career and they didn't have her contracted for all the episodes they needed to develop that story, and just brushed her under the rug.

Is that the one from T2 3D? I've never gotten the chance to see it.

Definitely a writer screw-up, and I'd explain it as Derek going to a different time. I can't fathom why one would only pretend to time-travel.

I liked T4 because it was a mindless action-piece. As far as Terminator canon goes, I feel like it doesn't really fit. Granted, I didn't feel like T3 fit when it came out, and when T2 introduced the idea of changing things, it rang false as the premise of the original movie seemed based around a self-fulfilling paradox.

It almost makes more sense to skip the first movie, watch the second, then the TV series, and forget about everything else. I really wished T4 hadn't continued on the way T3 set things up, but it's nice to see the future without laser-guns.

I liked it the first time. It's been ages since a sci-fi movie has had that much hype, so I went to see it opening weekend in IMAX 3D. The fact that it was so immersive in that format had me thinking I liked the movie.

Halfway through the third time (it was out on Blu-Ray at that point), I was so sick of it that I had to leave the room. I tried watching the extended DVD version, and I didn't get ten minutes into it. To make a long story short, I thought it was good, not great, as a one-time IMAX 3D "event" and I'm sure the next two will be. Script, acting, etc. were all pretty pathetic so it's not rewatchable, and I expect the sequels will be the same.

Your thoughts?

I suppose that's a good point, because the only reason she would is if she think it would help John, or be what he wanted. The "I'm sorry John" line seems to indicate it was a judgment call on her part that she didn't know how would go over with him.

I'll have to think about it more.

Sloppy production. ;) I think maybe the reason for Cameron's body not going through or being destroyed COULD be the result of the computer she was hooked up to for whatever reason.

Iunno.

Well then get them on the case! ;)
Saving the page doesn't work. I copied the files as they got stored in my temporary internet files folder (do you know how to access it? It's pretty simple).
Interestingly, all the mp3 load right away as you start the game, while you get additional swf files for each new screen that pops up (i.e. every time you move around the place), or if you will, every time you get the LOADING message.
As such, I can't be completely certain that I've got them all (what if there is a way to look into the vent?) but I'd say it is most likely the case.

If only it wasn't so short. You only really need two sets of blankets to win.
Maybe it would be better to remake it and give it a conclusion rather than fix it to work offline. I remember you once tried to recreate the entire BS Zelda. What were you using? Visual Basic?

Yeah, it's just weird.
I'm going to play again today. I discovered that you can use the tab button to higlight stuff you can click on.
And is it just me or is the game trolling you when saying that there's a time limit? ("Time is not your friend"). The first time I played, I tried to jam the elevator with an item thinking it would give me more time, instead the game thought I wanted to use the elevator and that got me a game over.

Edit:
Done. I found nothing new using the tab button other than a link to Cisco's website.

Sounds plausible, yes.

Mh, so I guess it still comes back to people missing the point that Neo had been led on the path he was walking by spoonfeeding him a massive amount of bull.
In fact, Zion is the one thing that should have driven the point home: they live in claustrophobic apartments which you access through RED doors within a hollow cylinder. It's clearly an inverted reference to the pods that people live in while in the Matrix (glowing red pods hanging onto a cylinder). It's literally the authors saying "Oh yes, they escaped the Matrix... but are they really free?".

And there's another thing I just don't get... why does everyone feel that battle was boring? It was one of my favorite parts of the movie, the outcome is not at all obvious (in fact they essentially lose, only achieving a moment of respite) and I see nothing boring about it at all.
Then again, I was bored with the highly praised battles in Lord of the Rings Return of the King, so I guess it might be me (honestly, by the time the deus ex freacking ghosts card was played I felt more relieved than ripped off).

Could be... but definitely minus the Jesse part. I mean, she clearly wasn't going after John. Initially she wanted him to leave her alone.
From what I hear, the idea was that she'd be the next target of the graffitti that drove Jordan to killing herself and through her John would get involved as well, jeopardizing his conterfeit identity.
What I'd like to know is, was whatever happened in Wichita standard teenage trouble, or were they going somewhere more interesting with her father keeping a close watch on her? (Like Cheri being targeted by Terminators too, or conversely having her father be a gray?)

Speaking of statements by the authors, do you know any others that offer insight on things we didn't get to see?
All I know is this one, the statement that Derek would have been the local resistance leader in season 3 and that, in the future Cameron came from, John didn't personally know Allison and had simply selected her for the mission in which she got captured (it's distrubing the amount of fans that still like to make her 40 something John's lover).
Oh and now, thanks to you, that Ellison could become a minister.

Glad we agree. As for why he may want to fake going back in time... maybe John knew that in the previous future Derek's absence triggered certain events that he wants to occur again? (Not Jesse going back with Riley, I don't believe John would want that).
And the same would go for Kyle too right? (Having come from a previous future than those of anybody in the series). Cameron would either have lied when saying he was sent back to 1984 from hers, or have been lied to.

Personally I like all four movies very much. The third one not quite like the others (it is admittedly the weaker one) but still more than enough.
As for the self fulfilling paradox of the first, James Cameron had already proven that to be only apparent (caused by repeated attempts to kill Sarah in 1984) with the second one (in which they destroy the research that the T800 knows to have led to Skynet in its future). Anything past that, being set after 1997, requires this to be the case, which is why it irks me in T4 that the guy who knows the future he's in is not the same as the one Kyle came from, gives us that "kill Kyle reset the timeline" nonsense (although, granted, if Kyle was to die and then Skynet sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah... the next John, if there would be one, would be very different).

Anyway, I feel it actually helps the second movie that the first one makes it look like fate in inescapable, because when they dod manage to change the future it is all the more meaningful (and the decision alone to try in the face of the apparent contrary evidence all the more heroic)... but after that, it's grown old. We know the future can be changed so there's no more need for apparent self fulfilling paradoxes like believeing in the need to send Kyle back, or the Fischer thing.

Haha, then we are on the same note! I've hated Avatar the moment I heard what it was going to be about (evilly evil men wage war on primitive but wise, noble aliens). It's admittedly pretty to watch but the story is trite (seriously should have been called "Space Pocahontas Smurfs") and, by the end of the movie, nonsensical.
I mean these guys are coming from space... why are they even making their way to this holy tree thingy on the planet's surface rather than dropping directly on it? Why not just blast it from orbit? I'd like to see the indian smurfs and their animal friends respond to that!

Precisely, yes. Though lots of people assume that it was always Cameron's mission to provide her chip to the machine resistance A.I. (because "she's different" and so must be her chip) while never revealing this to past John ("lying about important things"). The reasoning is that she seemed to know exactly what would happen the moment Ellison asked her the question. And as she enters John Henry's room, she's already got the knife in her hand, without anyone telling her that she would need it.
In that context her "I'm sorry John" message would be an apology for having to leave him without being able to tell him anything first (future John knew his past self would grow attached, like in T2, but perhaps not that it'd be such a strong bond that he'd jump after her... though others believe this was exactly the plan, but not me).

Possibly yes :lol:

Ah, I always assumed it was because she was missing half her face (only living matter goes through).
I'm told the reason they had a metal skull go through the time bubble in the pilot was solely because the studios objected to a flesh covered decapitated head flying towards the audience.

My wife is wonderful. In order to take a break from my second week of training, she went with me to see Battle LA. Of course, it wasn't all that good -- those things are never what you hope them to be -- but since we love science fiction, I thought I'd mention that. The dialogue was probably the most horrendous stuff I've ever heard. If it had not "flashed back" after the first two minutes, I think I would have liked it a lot better. Actually, it'd make a great fan-edit.

And, I also got around to watching the V season (series?) finale. It's pretty great -- a game-changer, but it's not going to pay off, because it'll get canceled unless a miracle happens. I'm not saying it won't happen, but it probably won't.

Hence Admiral Dougherty's speech. Speaking of which, I never really "got" that. I understand the value of keeping a text open-ended and opinion free, but it just seemed a little unnecessary to have that whole sequence only to say, "I'm not saying anything, I'm just an old man, blah blah blah ..."

"Here's what we, the writers, are wanting you to think about at this point in the movie. But we're not imposing an opinion! YOU decide."

I thought it was pretty obvious that they were going to lose. They'd been saying they would all movie long, and that everything rested with Neo (whom we knew, of course, would win). It's boring visually. And there was no suspense created visually, either. It's a common case of overusing CGI and thinking that it somehow improves the film instead of hampering it.

No kidding. The only time I can remember falling asleep in the theatre was about eight hours into that stupid Minas Tirith battle. I have no idea why they felt the need to make it that long.

Then again, after realizing that King Kong could have been an hour and a half shorter, I've decided that director just likes a slow pace. It's a miracle we got a film as great as The Fellowship of the Ring. It really was a fluke.

I guess it's the weakness of the TV storytelling medium. Contracts, people moving on, seasons ending early due to weird strikes, studios cutting back on their episode orders, etc. We'll probably never know.

I really don't know much about insights on other things we didn't get to see, you seem to know a lot more about it than I do. But ...

I still find this rather strange, and I'm not sure I like it.

Have you ever seen Metropolis? That's kind of how I imagine all underground sci-fi religious movements being. (And Ellison's usefulness would probably have expired in storytelling terms.)

Speaking of Metropolis, I hear they've released an even newer version with an extra newly-found 20 minutes in Germany! I believe sometime in early 2010.

Yeah, I suppose (as far as the movies go) it's not worth looking into the stories a whole ton, as they're all basically glorified chase movies. I can still remember watching T1, thinking that the terminator is dead for the umpteenth time only to have him appear again. Scary, scary movie. The other movies never were quite as horrifying. T2 was more just a bunch of violence and profanities strung together in an effects show.

LOL! I knew nothing about the story just that it was supposed to be as big as it ended up being. There were some cool visual effects, but the story just destroyed it. And I know I'm in the minority here -- but I was very disappointed in James Horner's score. Some of it was pretty, most of it was not.

Yeah, it requires too many bold assumptions for this to have been his plan all along. And it assumed that the jump would be for the best -- which I'm still not convinced. This show has a dark side, and I definitely think that the decision to jump forward would blow up in John's face in some pretty major ways.

That's too bad. It probably would have been a scarier image to see.

Network TV's getting a lot bolder with their levels of objectionable content. There were some pretty gruesome scenes in the V finale ... a little too gruesome for my tastes, but I guess they were going for shocking.

Sorry it took me so long to write more, and that I'm being so brief with everything, but I wanted to write back the second I could!

[EDIT] And I wanted to ask -- have you ever seen La Jetee (1963)? I think this is probably one of my favorite sci-fi movies. I wanted to see 12 Monkeys, but I've never gotten around to it -- don't really want to touch another R-rated movie after all these years.

Nice to hear your comments on Battle LA - I'm hoping to see it tomorrow. I wasn't expecting much from it, and am ready for it not to be that great a movie - who knows, maybe I will be more pleasantly surprised that way by not having any real expectations.

That's a good way to look at it. For the most part, it was exactly the movie it was advertised to be. The "character development" portions just kind of destroyed the sense of suspense that the movie opened up with, in my opinion.

Sure, you want to know what these guys are fighting for and have to lose, but they really should have hired someone for a dialogue rewrite.

Be sure to report back on what you think of it when all is said and done. ;)

Eh... when will they learn? ;)

I see your point yes... though I wouldn't say it ever really bothered me.

I suppose so... but they had to "win enough" that they wouldn't all get killed before Neo could save the day, and seeing how this would happen was interesting.

Again, this sums up what I felt about Return of the King, but not Revolutions. Weird. Maybe it is just me.
Or maybe it's Revolutions' awesome soundtrack that carries the movie for me.

That nearly happened to me with Signs and Spielberg's War of the Worlds. It probably would have if not for easily scared people that kept shouting.

Well, I also enjoyed the first book more than the latter two, so it could also be due to the source material.

Yeah, only option is wild speculation of the fanficcy variety.

Haha, same goes for me.
In fact, all of Ellison's spirituality seemed kind of hamfisted to me. Particularly I would question the wisdom of teaching an A.I. morals by using the bible. Even if the A.I. has emotions, I imagine it is likely to question a lot of things in it ("Statement 'an eye for an eye' conflicts with 'vengeance is mine'. Unable to compute.")

What about it in particular? (Seemed pretty standard to me)

Gee, do they even know how long this thing originally was?
Anyway, have you seen the anime? It's absolutely fantastic.

I felt the "tragedy" parts were rather heavy handed too.
Like they were afraid people would not empathize with the giant smurfs without a "powerful" enough music to go with it (note - I did not empathize either way because I thought both sides were being dicks).

Agreed. One has to wonder what Weaver's agenda is for the two Johns. Some people suppose they went to the future to learn and train (to then come back, of course). Others think they were going to fight back and win the war starting from 2027/9 which, as I mentioned before, seems haphazard to me.
Or perhaps a bit of both: it could be the plan was originally for John Henry to join John in the future after he became leader of the resistance and then Weaver allowed him to come along changing it from a war mission to a training one.
I can't help but think that simply having John Henry learn more about his brother would be a let down in storytelling, that there should be some ulterior (more surprising and of greater impact) motive... but then we've been burned about machines having great and elaborate Plans in the past so...

Either way... what do you make of the apparent build up Mr. Murch provided for John Henry's download into Cameron's chip? Remember when Weaver asked him to make John Henry movable and he said altering even one bit of John Henry could change him in unpredictable ways?
I can't help but speculate on the outcome of downloading him on a chip that has certain termination orders hardwired into it...

No problem :)

No, I actually had never heard of it before.

Oh, stop being such a scaredy cat :P
Just watching R-rated movies won't turn you into somebody inclined to perform R-rated actions. Have more confidence in yourself and the solidity of your moral values :)
12 Monkeys though... it's a good movie but a bit depressing. Which is saying a lot coming from me as I tend to think of Cameron's Titanic as "a substandard comedy". Then again, I imagine La Jetee must be no birthday party either.

BTW, you dind't answer my question:
"I remember you once tried to recreate the entire BS Zelda. What were you using? Visual Basic?"

I hate the writers. TSCC wouldn't have been canceled if it weren't for that lull, V wouldn't have been canceled (probably) if they weren't obsessed with cat-and-mouse episodes that left nothing changed at the end of each episode, Jericho would still be around if it was good ...

It does make me wonder why audiences didn't flee shows like LOST and BSG, though. Those shows definitely had low points.

Maybe it was them trying to empower women with having our two most annoying characters put in the battle, but I didn't think there was anything interesting going on there. It's like, "who do I care about surviving?" The answer, of course, is not a specific person, because they're all terrible characters, but "humanity" in general.

I love the soundtrack. It's what carried TRON Legacy for me, so I definitely know what you're talking about.

I liked War of the Worlds. I was super-surprised that it was a suspense-movie, as I was expecting more explosions, less running, but I thought it was a good flick.

I don't think so. Dramatic tension is my explanation. The first movie, you're sucked into with all the perilous situations. It's like they stopped trying for number two.

*Aragorn jumps off a million-foot ladder.*

*Orcs catch him.*

*Aragorn looks at Orc a little too hard and its head pops off.*

Quite a primitive computer if it doesn't understand the concept of if/else. ;)

Jesus essentially nullified the law of Moses, and you have a lot of likewise instances of conditional commandments. So it shouldn't be too hard for a computer advanced enough to run C or PHP or what have you.

As far as Ellison's usefulness or the underground religious movement thing?

My thought is, how much can a minister-type add to this kind of story? Annoying monologues?

My understanding is that this last batch of footage they found restores it almost 100% to what they originally estimated it to be.

I'll have to look it up. I'd never heard of it before.

Yeah, I think it's a bad case of having both the protagonists and antagonists completely one-dimensional. And what's up with Hollywood badmouthing "mercenary" groups nowadays? It used to be the military until they realized that this didn't sit well with 99% of America, but what's wrong with people who give a useful service (black ops) and get paid for it?

I think Weaver's maybe wanted John Henry to collect data from the future now that he'd been taught a sense of morality. I don't think she cares all that much about John Connor for any reason other than that he could be a useful ally.

What I wonder is how SHE got that way.

I hadn't thought about it... what I'm interested in is you elaborating on your thoughts, plz.

@ the morals thing: I'm like an impressionable child. I've been dropping the f-bomb everywhere since seeing Battle LA, and they only said it once or twice ... I'm not sure I'll ever be mature enough to handle a lot of things, lol.

Actually some people, quoting interviews, believe that had the first season of TSCC not been affected by the writers strike, it would have turned out as gloomy and bizarre as the second did. It's just speculation really, but either way, we can't really tell if the show would have made it to the third season.
As for V, are you sure that wasn't an editorial mandate? Like the wall of names in season 2 of TSCC?
And Jericho... that series was just terrible. Most cities all over the nation get nuked, what do we do? Throw a party of course!
>_<

Didn't BSG lose a LOT of viewers by season 4?
And yeah, the greatest mystery of Lost is how it continued to be popular after season 2.

I'll spare us a comment on the infamous Eowyn scene.

I thought it was horrible. I hated every single character in it and yet the movie was built entirely on the expectation that I would like them and care for them.
It started out pretty good, up until the part when they drive their car into a crowd of people. Every moment from then onward was physically painful for me to sit through.
It holds the dubious distinction of being the only movie to ever make me shout something while in a theater (specifically, in the scene where the main character can't keep his unarmed son from marching into the fight against aliens whose force fields are making military weapons useless, I couldn't hold it any more and screamed "Yes! To battle!", voice dripping with sarcasm, of course)

lol!
I suppose that could be part of the problem, yes :)

Well that was just one example. If the computer accepted that notion, which I suppose it could, then it wouldn't have a problem with it, yes (me I do have a bit of a problem with being told "Hey you know all that self-made justice that's been totally ok so far? Well it's not anymore.").
But I still think the sheer amount of religious dogmas contained therein would blow the computer's not so flexible mind.
That and I always expected him to ask Ellison "How do I know your religion is the correct one?"

Yeah, either that or merely helping out troubled characters in resolving their issues.
...or maybe Ellison was supposed to marry John and Cameron :lol:

Oh goody.

Sheer magnificence.

Yep, stereotypes everywhere we look.

Ah but what kind of data exactly?
And yes, she definitely only cares for John because the machine resistance alone would probably fail, but that's only further reason for her to want him as prapared as he can be.

You mean how she rebelled against Skynet? Popular theory is that the liquid metal Terminators not having a chip but being "all brain" essentially are intellectually much more advanced than others and can't be set to "read only". This actually seems already evident in the original T-1000 who rapidly developed some personality quirks and was very, very unhappy with its termination.

Skynet sets Terminators to read only precisely so they can't come up with any outwordly ideas like "Hey, what if I stopped fighting for a supercompter that doesn't give a crap about my well being?".
IF, as it is speculated, liquid metal ones are always necessarily set to read/write, it'd be almost inevitable for them to eventually stop obeying orders. It seems likely then that Skynet would only produce a very limited number and keep them under a watchful eye (except of course when getting so desperate that he has to reset the timeline and at that point everything goes).

Well, it actually is pretty much all there in that line... Cameron was able to override her termination directive supposedly because she did not -want- to kill John (I don't believe for a moment that it was John blowing her chip like an NES cart).
John Henry on the other hand has no attachment to him. Cameron could find herself trapped within a cyborg intent on locating and killing John.
Then again, Joh Henry has those morals Ellison taught him. Maybe this would have been where they'd get tested. We could have ended up having a sequence very much like the one at the start of Season 2, with Cameron finally talking him into overriding the termination orders after a climatic chase scene.
And let us also not forget that Cameron's chip had been damaged (the reason those directives had resurfaced in the first place, of course). Certainly that hadn't been factored in when the plan for her to give it over to the anti-Skynet A.I. in the past was hacthed and there's no telling what consequences that could have had.

Sorry but this calls for a: :rotflmho:

Why would you want Jericho to still be around...

Ditto.

I watched Battle LA - even having low expectations, I found it very underwhelming.

So much hate for Jericho, even after I make a joke about how it wasn't good? ;)

To be honest, I thought that the first episode was good, but I stopped shortly thereafter. Kind of like I did after the first hour of The 4400. It was great until it turned into a supernatural version of CSI (The 4400, not Jericho).

Yeah, that was definitely my thought. I guess the poorly drawn aliens really drove the nail in the B-movie coffin for me.

I wouldn't call the second season in general bizarre or gloomy. Because it had the best TV episodes I've ever seen in addition to the bizarre and gloomy ones.

It seemed to be the will of the writing staff to make it as standalone as it was. Whether or not this was done to "sell" the show doesn't matter much to me. There was a good show to be had, they just didn't see it, so we ended up with a handful of good episodes.

It was down to less than a third of what they started with, but it was still good enough to warrant ordering another season.

You too, eh? I thought the first two seasons were the weakest. I'm just wondering why people watched it before season three. ;)

Actually, do you know where I think the show started to get real good? [spoiler]Michael killing that she-male Anna Lucia. She was also the crappiest part of Avatar, in my opinion.[/spoiler]

What is with me and hating masculine "fighting" women in movies and TV? I'll have to start refraining from such comments.

Did you like any of Spielberg's other movies? Because the things you hated about it seem to be the trademark of his "blockbuster" movies. People we care nothing about put in perilous situations with annoying children/teens who really should die, but of course end up alive in the end, with a visually "shocking" scene that fails entirely.

Sure sounds like Indiana Jones 4 to me!

God tried to give the children of Israel His "higher law" through Moses. Moses came down to a bunch of grown-up children sinning, and thus the law of Moses was born. They weren't ready for the law God ultimately wanted for them. It was an act of mercy, in a sense.

It's more carnal (read: sinful) to want vengeance, so God gave them laws that they could follow, so He wouldn't have to hold them accountable for commandments they had now way of keeping.

Interesting, no?

Me too! Of course, I always expected Ellison to go, "uh..." and then watch John Henry throw out all that "morality" stuff he was taught, and become evil.

That computer accepted things a little *too* easily for all of the information it had available to it. You mean to tell me he didn't run across a single article promoting athiesm?

:rotflmho:

I think she wanted him to see pain and suffering. I think she wanted him to know what caused these things. Since she's a machine, and seemed to be into the numbers of it all, I think she wanted him to help create the least amount of human suffering possible, given the equation he was a part of.

That seems to make sense.

If that would have been the case, I'd like for it to be more of a process we can see visually. Granted, they're able to process through data fast enough to make a huge "who am I?" altering decision in less than a second, but I still was always curious how the decision won out.

Oh, and I didn't use VisualBasic for long on the BS Zelda project. I migrated it all to a previously built engine, and was using a scripting language rooted in C that made it a lot easier.

Dang, I wish I still had those files. I could probably do it a lot faster nowadays, anyway. I'd definitely want to use Flash to recreate the Evasion game, if I were to do something like that, though. It's going to be the easiest utility for it.

I thought 4400 was ok, no more no less... until they came up with a substance that was responsible for all the powers and that gave random ones to people just by injecting it into them.
That was completely retarded and probably killed the show.

Yeah well, what they suggest based on those interviewa is that the "missing episodes" for season 1 would have ended up bizarre and gloomy too.

Gotcha.

Thankfully. People may not be happy with the ending, but what we got is certainly better than no ending at all.

The first season was kind of boring, but at least one could still think that the mysteries would eventually get rasonable answers. That the authors did not care to provide those became evident enough early on in season 2.

Didn't at all care for her character either.

I don't think so. I mean, you don't have a problem with Sarah Connor, right?
It all comes down with how forced the empowerment of the character comes off. Eowyn is annoying because of the way she delivers her line, making it sound like a women's lib speech whereas she should have merely been pointing out that the Nazgul had misunderstood the prophecy (it's not that no human can ever kill him, as the nazgul thought, rather that he will be killed by someone who is not a man, in the specific a woman).
Similarly, Ana Lucia was insufferable not because she was a woman capable of fighting for herself, but because she seemed to think she had to do so all the damn time, even when no one was challenging her in any way.

I like his old movies, but find that most stuff he's involved in these days turns out crap.
Let's say I liked his work since Close Encounters of the Third Kind in 1977 up to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade in 1989. After that, I only liked A.I. and Minority Report. Everything else he's made I found rather insufferable or downright detestable.
It's interesting to note that he's recently stated he regrets the ending of Close Encounters, that if he had made the movie today he would have had the main character forgo embarking on the spaceship to form a new family with the female lead and her kids.
...which of course would have destroyed the movie.
So yeah, as far as I'm concerned, he's lost it and is due for retirement.

Doesn't work for me. If it's wrong to kill someone, then it's wrong to kill someone. Something as fundamental as that should not change over the course of time.
I understand the concept of being less strict with little children, but that generally goes to such extents as telling lies or misbehaving, not ending lives. Or to carry on the example, you could be tolerant with your kid being caught lying but you would -not- actively encourage your child to punch back another when getting into a fight. (At least I hope that's the case :P)

On the other hand, if we were to view the Bible not as the word of an enlightened omniscient God but a text to regulate society written by wise men and that consequently evolved over time, then that'd make perfect sense to me.

Agreed almost 100%, except for the evil bit. That could be the consequence but didn't necessarily have to. He could either still be good, perhaps receiving a greater influence from learning to care about his friend Savannah than from anything Ellison tried to to teach him, or he could be unaffected by our concepts of good and evil. I'd say neutral, but I don't mean to say he'd be stuck inbetween, rather that he could develop his own outlook on life and the universe that does not fall within our categories.

It's funny because you think I'm joking...

;)

Ah, that's actually very far from what I imagine Weaver's agenda to be. I think Weaver wants coexistence with humans but beyond that doesn't care much about them (whether they are happy or suffering).
Basically, I think Weaver sees Skynet's strategy of survival through extermination of mankind as unsuccesful and would rather have mankind accept the existence of intelligent machines and let them be.
Naturally, she realizes that without a sense of morality she cannot learn to cohoperate with humans, which is why she had John Henry taught by humans rather than herself, but this only to the end of forming an alliance, not because she actually cares.

Alternatively she may actually just want the humans to help get rid of their oppressor, Skynet, to then get right back to fighting against mankind for supremacy.

Or hear it as the two debated in their "shared head".

I see, neat! :)
I do agree flash would probably be the best solution. Hadn't thought about that (was thinking GameMaker).

For me it was merely giving the characters super-powers in the second hour of the Pilot. Super-powers usually kill stories for me (with one or two exceptions).

My favorite was season 3. I was still hopeful come season 6 that there would be some answers (I think that the Sri Lanka video from "The LOST Experience" really should have made it into the show as they at least *sort of* address the numbers thing and what the Dharma Initiative was all about), and I held onto that hope until about 5 episodes before the end, when I finally realized that they didn't care.

Ana Lucia and Kat from BSG have got to be my least favorites. I definitely like the Sarah Connor/Lara Croft type. It's refreshing not to have your typical woman character (ie. Kate from LOST) crying about being mean to people, but also not over-compensating for being an unattractive tom boy.

Also ...

Starbuck: I'm sad about killing Leobon even though I just tortured him. Wah, I can't believe you lied to him.
Roslin: I'm a hard-ass, but also a nice old lady. Flush him out the airlock.
Starbuck < Roslin

I liked Jurassic Park 1 & 3. Oh, I also liked Hook. But I think that's about it -- I'll have to admit that I was disappointed with Minority Report.

I don't get that at all. I mean, I think it's wrong to kill someone. But if someone's about to murder my family, I think it's wrong NOT to kill them. Morality should be about circumstance, I'm sure you'll agree, and that ought to extend to sin. I guess I don't see why you think that circumstantial morality is somehow belittling to the concept of God.

Unless you think the solution in that scenario would be to allow the family to get murdered, given that killing is wrong.

Morality is such an abstract thing, as is his interest in Savannah. I can't see him "caring" about Savannah without the basis of things like the human soul. Maybe I'm reading too much into non-existent subtext, but that was my take.

Very intriguing. That's probably a lot more true to her character than what I was thinking of.

In other news ... I'm feeling so bloody sick this weekend. I've been reading some great books, but have mostly been in bed. Ugh.

They do for me too when receiving bullsh*t explanations (or when they are decidedly more magic than scientifically plausible in an otherwise non-magic setting).

Took you long enough :lol:

*lol* Yeah that went a little too far with the hand on the glass and whatnot.

Well, it would be preferable to incapacitate the murderer, but I do understand the validity of the self defence argument.
But the thing is, how do you generalize circumstances? What exactly about the pre-Christ circumstances would have made it okay to kill people in revenge whereas it no longer is after Christ?
You've attributed this to the cultural/spiritual condition of mankind, but that's the part that doesn't work for me. I don't really see how mankind was any more or any less ready for the updated laws. After all, not to kill your fellow human ought to be, in my opinion, the first and most fundamental of laws. If there is one thing that should have been made clear from the start, that was it. I would not say it's the kind of law you should skip over until the next update. That's something you can do for, say, sanctifying festivities, or to not eat meat on Friday.

Caring isn't that particularly abstract and complicate of a feeling. If John Henry enjoys spending time with Savannah he would care for her to be well and able to be with him (which he clearly does. He's very preoccupied when she gets kidnapped).
If the quality of the time he spends with her depends on her emotional condition (which it does, obviously) he would care about that as well.
Starting from there, he could learn by analogy to care about other people, although admittedly caring for the sake of caring (without a personal interest) is a much more difficult step to make... even for humans often enough.
In fact, one might even say that true (selfless) empathy can't be taught but has to be "coded in" (as it is into us).
But even if John Henry didn't make it that far in his development, he could still come to the conclusion that being "good" is in his best interest.

Uh..?

Glad you agree ^_^

Is that some kind of British flu?

Hope it gets better soon!

I really hate the "by nuclear waste" idea. I was reading a series of books, and I was wondering when we would get the "superpower" explanation. I was directed to a certain page, being informed "the answer's already been given" and it was the part talking about a nuclear reactor meltdown.

That's not science fiction, that's pure fantasy. Granted, the books are so good, it somehow managed not to ruin the story for me.

"Thou shalt not kill" is definitely one of the ten commandments. I thought we were talking about "an eye for an eye," which sounds closer to capital punishment than outright killing. I don't know where God condones killing pre-Christ except in self-defense, the defense of society (which is sometimes done while on the offense, as opposed to waiting to be attacked), and when a primitive society can't handle forgiveness -- so he allows them a portion of vengeance for the time being.

The Sabbath has changed days over the years, as well as the stages it takes, and pig meat used to be dangerous to eat, hence a lot of the commandments that no longer apply to modern society. Drink water you'll die, drink wine you live. Wine used to be less alcoholic anyway, but I'm certain God would choose a nation consuming a slightly intoxicating substance over dying.

Think about it this way: you have to give children specific rules on what they can and cannot do on the Sabbath, or they'll do anything. Hence the specific amount of steps they can take, etc.

I don't see how, because his capabilities are so far beyond what any computer hacker could do. The machine could steal billions of dollars, and probably even has the resources to stage a coup against Weaver, were he to choose this. I think he had an odd fascination with her, so better to play it mostly safe for the time being.

I mean, I don't believe in stealing people's money, but on a level that's what we all try to do. Job interviews are all about why you deserve to do the work to get paid by a company more than other people. If I could click a button to publish one of my works over someone else's with a huge marketing budget, I would.

Now apply that to an entity that doesn't have a level of morality, that could definitely use the money, and I don't think they'll be "good" in the traditional sense.

Is it too soon to make a joke about Japan here?

Ah, so I was right that the eye for an eye bit was in conflict with the commandments (I ended up quoting the wrong passage, obviously. My bad).
Capital punishment is still killing, just government approved, therefore the conflict that I figure would trouble a computer mind like John Henry's.
Or mine, for that matter. If that was the idea, the commandment should have been "Thou shalt not kill, except to execute murders."
Not to mention that God had already established that the first murderer, Cain, was not to be killed by anyone (and was marked to prevent exactly that, from what I understand). It really feels like the "eye for an eye" bit was added by a different author that had interests in the matter. And once you allow for that, you have to question how reliable the entire text is.

And that's what I can't get behind. It's better to let them kill each other than to make it a sin? Really?

Well then we need another update ;)

Well, that depends on what temptations John Henry could be subject to. Who's to say he's greedy? Especially when he's got Weaver pampering to his every need.

And a coup against her? He knew Weaver had information and abilities beyond his own (he knew she was made of a different metal, but couldn't figure out where she came from). Like you say, he would probably want to play it safe, and wisely so because Weaver would be rather hard to dispose of seeing as bullets are ineffective against her.

Could definitely use the money? What for?
And like I said, just because he may refute Ellison's religious teachings doesn't mean he couldn't still develop a sense of morality.
Stealing is an action that goes against social life. Finding our place within society, as demonstrated not only by mankind but even by animals like ants, ultimately works to our benefit as well as the others that partake in it.
Taking this into account, John Henry could well decide that it is in his best interest to be a good being and try not to get people like the Connors to hunt him down like they are trying to hunt down bad A.I.s like Skynet who chose not to live in harmony with human society.

Lol. I've actually been reading a lot about the benefits of being exposed to high levels of radiation. I know I'd be scared about the water if I had a baby over there, though.

The rational explanation is:
Killing Innocents |= Killing Security Risks

Scriptural understanding dictates that part of the reason God sent us here is to exercise our agency. There are several passages about not being a slothful servant and not being commanded in all things. Besides, life would be so boring if we had it all laid out for us.

I agree. There's no doubt that when you have a text written in a gazillion pages, being passed down and rewritten from man to man that you're going to have a lot of errors. Obviously, these errors are a point of dispute, but I would argue that some portions of text have been changed to suit the purposes of "conspiring men."

Which is why I, personally, find it hard to look at the Bible alone, as a source of faith.

An eye for an eye is, for example, if they steal from you, you steal from them. A very carnal concept. But if your children are going to be doing it anyway, might as well lay down the law to disincentive doing wrong in the first place. That's my take on it ... I'm just glad I wasn't alive back then, because it does bother me a little.

Not to put words in the mouth of God, but my understanding is that He wants as many people as possible to make it back to Him. That's why he sent Jesus Christ to atone for our sins. Because we're all sinners, and none of us could make it back to him if Justice were the eternal law. Forgiveness must be the eternal law.

How long have you known me, again? Remember how I used to talk about hunting you down in the afterlife to see you converted? ^_^

Okay, I don't know how close I am to breaking forum rules, so we can continue this discussion in other manners, if needs be.

I'd argue that temptations are usually chemical reactions in the body, which wouldn't apply for a machine (my whole beef with 2001: A Space Oddysey is it's based on the premise that a machine could get "stressed" about conflicting orders, and stress is also a chemical reaction. Otherwise the commands should nullify each other, given that they're treated as equal. Or he would try to execute the other before fully executing the first, and you have this cyclic pattern of being unable to accomplish anything).

Well, he seemed to hunt down a chip well enough. Upgrades are expensive!

Besides, he's a machine, and therefore has no need for society, IMO. So while I'll agree that stealing is counter to society, I don't see his incentive to be the good player in society.

But I see your point.

Like being able to fly and shoot lasers from your eyes?

That's a point of view, not one that everybody shares.

So we are free to do whatever only to be punished in the afterlife? Again, I don't find this to be sound.

Glad we can agree to that ^_^

Are you suggesting that it should have been limited by the thou shall not kill commandment? (In that it should not be taken too far?)
Then it should have been expressed in economic terms (if they steal from you, you have a claim to get something in return) not in "if they gouge out one of your eyes it's fine to do the same to them".

Well my take is that no society should be so primitive that the concept "don't kill your fellow humans" is too difficult for them to accept.
Like you say, they may do so anyway, but that's no reason not to start telling them it's wrong (and certainly not to tell them it's ok).

The way I remember that threat, it was that you'd track me down in a successive life, not the afterlife :P

No violation that I can see as we are keeping the discussion cool and civil.
But we are going severely off topic and I'd rather get back to sci-fi ;)

Are they? Temptations are wants. It's clear that John Henry has wants, or it wouldn't matter to him whether he's got his terminator body or not.

Well, we don't really know how a self aware computer mind would work... what they labeled as stress could be a rough equivalent resulting from the imperative to act but the inability to do so because of the conflicting orders which would result in conflicting mental processes grinding into each other.

A chip? You mean Cameron's?
But yeah, I suppose he could fancy upgrades, however that seems something Weaver is more than happy to provide without need of prodding.

Being a machine he has no need of society? It's not really a matter of need we are discussing here. He is surrounded by human society, so his options are either to defy it like Skynet did or go along with it. Given the input he's received (both from humans and Weaver) it seems legitimate that he'd choose to try and fit in.
After all, he'd have little to gain (again it's easy to be a good person when all your needs are promptly attended to ;)) and much to lose (Skynet, in all of its might, is presumably alone. I don't think John Henry wishes to be alone).

Happy Judgement Day guys!

Hope you all remembered to invest in x-ray glasses and/or metal detectors.