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WELCOME
We are a shoujo-based scanlation group founded on April 20th, 2008. We hope to bring you lots of good manga to read so please support us!

Happy bday, Domino
07.18.10

Rakuen Route ch5

You need 10 non-spam posts in our forums to access the releases!

RECRUITMENT
We are currently recruiting EDITORS, translators(j-e, k-e, c-e), quality checkers, and scanners! If you are interested, please visit the Recruitment section! You do not need to have experience to try for a translator, scanner, or editor position, we are willing to train newbies!

PROJECT STATUSES
Are you curious about how far into a chapter we are or when is the next release? Well then, check out our Twitter for instant updates and our full list of all our projects and their statuses.

WEBSITE
Please visit our website at: rebelliouslove.freehostia.com

Credits
Designed by Beatrix
Sidebar: Dana
Coding Help: RCR

 
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 What do you think, Rebellious Love?, Joining Operation Saver
 
After reading this, what do you think?
Yes! I support Operation Saver! Go for it! [ 23 ]  [79.31%]
No. MT has a point. Don't join it. [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
Either way is fine. [ 3 ]  [10.34%]
I've been uploading for MT before RL's waiting time is up (SHAME!) [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
I have an idea...I will post it in this thread... [ 3 ]  [10.34%]
Total Votes: 29
  
TFS
Posted on May 23 2010, 11:03 PM


Gifted and Lazy
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I've been reading a bit too much, so i'll keep things short.

-Scanlating/hosting is completely illegal because it cuts into the profits of the mangaka.

-Scanlating groups work for releases, hosters do not. Therefore, the product of their work (the translated release) should be up to them, much like the mangaka's work (the raw manga) should be left up to them... not that these rules are followed anyway.

-This whole issue will cause a loss in fanbase for all parties involved.

-The issue with the waiting period is the community growth/popularity is it not? I believe that they're keeping the credit pages in, so our name IS getting out there for anyone who cares... I would like to hear more about this particular argument though.

-I always think cooperation is the best solution, always. For example, since we're having issues with RAWS and such, perhaps we can petition MT for specific monetary costs? It works out in both our interests.
canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 12:00 AM


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QUOTE
-Scanlating/hosting is completely illegal because it cuts into the profits of the mangaka.


Yeah. That's been reiterated plenty here and at MT (in which, I finally took the time to skim through most of the posts, although I got irritated at both sides for their immaturity and lack of proper English, making it difficult to understand properly).

QUOTE
-Scanlating groups work for releases, hosters do not. Therefore, the product of their work (the translated release) should be up to them, much like the mangaka's work (the raw manga) should be left up to them... not that these rules are followed anyway.


I don't know how I feel about this comment. Sure, scanlation teams may work to bring out the releases, but hosters have their own set of work set before them to make the release readily available for people to download and at a decent speed. The "product of their work" belongs to no one, in all technicalities, as stated in point one (neither holds the rights, thus both are illegal). Raw or translated, the work still shouldn't be translated and/or distributed without explicit permission from the copyright holders.

You have to remember that, although it sounds absolutely horrible, manga hosting sites are generally more popular than scanlation team websites. It is because these sites host projects and link to (although it seems MT does not link) and/or retain the credits with the team's URL, that scanlation teams grow in terms of a fanbase.

QUOTE
-This whole issue will cause a loss in fanbase for all parties involved.


Mm, yes and no, perhaps? Just because scanlation teams release their projects into Operation Saver doesn't mean someone won't be a dumbass and take the time to printscreen, perhaps even clean off the watermarks and fix the scans from the downloads and/or online reader and then post it on a site like MT. Speaking logically, it may end up doing absolutely nothing to resolve the issue because some people will do whatever it takes to make the release easily distributable (with or without removing the watermarks).

QUOTE
-The issue with the waiting period is the community growth/popularity is it not? I believe that they're keeping the credit pages in, so our name IS getting out there for anyone who cares... I would like to hear more about this particular argument though.


I'm actually not particularly sure about why most shoujo teams have the waiting period. For my scanlation team, the three day waiting period is for the sake of traffic on the IRC channel and/or speeding up the downloads on IRC too. But, as I have absolutely no knowledge of IRC, I can't say for sure. I'd kind of like to hear a more specific reasoning for this too, although I don't particularly care either way about waiting periods. After all, the release will come eventually.

QUOTE
-I always think cooperation is the best solution, always. For example, since we're having issues with RAWS and such, perhaps we can petition MT for specific monetary costs? It works out in both our interests.


This will cause even more of an uproar between the staff of MT and scanlation teams. It doesn't work out for both at all. MT gets donations to run it's servers, which total to approximately $1,000/month to run five separate download servers and a website server (the website itself and forum). This is because, due to the heavy traffic and resource use of such a site, the resources end up being disturbingly costly. If the funds aren't met, the administrator will have to use pocket money to upkeep the site (and who's to say s/he doesn't already pay for part of it anyway?). Why, then, should the hosting site have to provide money to the scanlation team? They've found a way to actively get the donations they require to run their website. If you're having troubles getting raws, perhaps you should consider potential file hosts that pays you for every downloaded file. It's the least your loyal fans can do to assist you if they cannot afford to donate. Don't forget, MT has ads plastered all over their site to help with costs as well.

I have a scanlation team on my server of which I've allowed to ask for donations for their raws. I get no percentage whatsoever from them even though I pay for the hosting fees so that they can have a website and (potentially) provide DDL for their files. If you feel MT is obligated to provide money to scanlation teams for RAWs, am I not obligated to receive money from said scanlation team for hosting fees?

---

I feel like everything I've said here makes it seem like I support MT. I hope that's not the case. I've been trying, like crazy, to view this entire situation from an unbiased and level headed point of view. Coming from both sides, I understand the difficulties and arguments of both sides, but rather than trying to reason it out (which obviously hasn't worked, as seen on MT's forums) or fight it to the bitter end, coming up with logical and solid reasonings for why things should be done a certain way would be better. Plus, with this, perhaps MT will take into consideration the three day waiting period since you're hoping the releases will make a little bit of profit for you so that you earn a little to purchase your raws.

*shrugs* I think I'm talking way too much and making far too long of posts on this thread. xD I'll probably stop here unless someone directs a question at me or something. I apologize if I said something to potentially offend someone. I have no intentions of offending anyone with anything I've stated.
lonelyduchess
Posted on May 24 2010, 05:32 AM


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I support the Operation Saver. MT has rude staff and they even 'rejected' the thread itself. 287.gif
mikariangel
Posted on May 24 2010, 08:55 AM


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I'm pinning this topic after i reply so ... yay?

Everyone typed way too much so i didn't get to read it all.... and my eyes got wayy to tired to try.

BUT... i was reading the post that Megane and kkaixi typed up first, and they were talking about how what we are doing isn't really legal and all that stuff.... But what MT is doing isn't legal either. They are taking what they think isn't right and putting it on a website for even more people to download from >>
I think we kind of have a right to have a waiting period so that we can make sure the stuff we release is actually okay, since many times, we have to go and change the link before the waiting period is over, and make sure that the other group has got the link as well if it is a joint.

Also, it doesn't really cut into the profits of the mangaka if the fact is that we are getting scans from ONLINE PLACES... it was already there in the first place? Anyway, most people here can't even read the manga we scanlate in raws, so it's not like they are going to buy it. Just saying ><. Also, that's why people stop scanlating manga once the series is licensed, so that the people can get paid for what they are supposed to get paid.

as for the required posts, it's usually because many people just try to get the releases and not really contribute to the forum? I know that most forums usually put a post requirement because they actually need more activity on the forum.

as for the online reader... let's hope no one has the snipping tool. it takes the image right off from a screenshot >>

as for the IP... doesn't it show if they post??? it's on the bottom of their side thingie


@Candi: LOL. i was about to answer it
canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 09:22 AM


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Ugh. Sorry. I said I wouldn't reply for a while, but here I am again. u___u Sorry guys. Lol. I just wanted to clarify a few things...

QUOTE
Also, it doesn't really cut into the profits of the mangaka if the fact is that we are getting scans from ONLINE PLACES... it was already there in the first place? Anyway, most people here can't even read the manga we scanlate in raws, so it's not like they are going to buy it. Just saying ><. Also, that's why people stop scanlating manga once the series is licensed, so that the people can get paid for what they are supposed to get paid.


That's not true. I can't read Japanese worth a freaking dime, but I've still purchased Japanese RAW mangas anyway. Besides, I think that by NOT purchasing your own RAWs for mangas, you're already cutting the profits from the mangaka. So what if it's already online? As fans of the mangaka who wants to share his/her works, shouldn't you be the prime example of "supporting the manga" by buying the raws and working with it? Most scanlation groups I know purchase their own raws and the scanners use their own money to purchase the books/magazines, shred it to pieces by tearing the pages apart and scanning it in properly. Mind you, most of these people are full time university students who work part time, have various bills to pay, etc...and somehow or another still manage to scrape by and support their favorite mangakas.

QUOTE
as for the required posts, it's usually because many people just try to get the releases and not really contribute to the forum? I know that most forums usually put a post requirement because they actually need more activity on the forum.


Forum activity will be the same no matter what. Forcing members to post, as I said before, does nothing but accumulate useless posts in the database, which will, eventually, lead to load time lagging of the database. Everything on a forum is stored in the database and the bigger the database, the longer the load time. Besides, how many of these members actually remain active after the required post count?

QUOTE
as for the online reader... let's hope no one has the snipping tool. it takes the image right off from a screenshot >>


Any and every computer should have this "snipping" tool. It's called the "PRINT SCREEN" (PRT SC) button. Paste the printed screen in any image editor, crop out the image and viola. You've got your manga.

QUOTE
as for the IP... doesn't it show if they post??? it's on the bottom of their side thingie


Only moderators and administrators, to my knowledge, have access to the IPs of each and every poster. From my personal experiences with forum scripts, that should be the case anyway (then again, I've never worked with Invision Forums before).
kkaixi
Posted on May 24 2010, 10:02 AM


Clergy
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First of all @Canbari, the way you said all these things, even if someone is against your ideas I don't think they'll be offended. Everyone has different opinions right? It's only when people say "We're better than you and your policy is dumb and should be ignored" that people really start to ..*cough* flame. >_>

That being said, I myself have never worked for a manga hosting team. Thus, I do not know how much work is involved in this. I guess I really have no right to say "we work harder than you so we should get more credit than you" because of the little knowledge I know, I do know that there is a lot of work that's involved in manga hosting as well.

QUOTE
Mm, yes and no, perhaps? Just because scanlation teams release their projects into Operation Saver doesn't mean someone won't be a dumbass and take the time to printscreen, perhaps even clean off the watermarks and fix the scans from the downloads and/or online reader and then post it on a site like MT. Speaking logically, it may end up doing absolutely nothing to resolve the issue because some people will do whatever it takes to make the release easily distributable (with or without removing the watermarks).


If they do this then they're just wasting their time. Most likely it'll take them three days just to do this--they'd have to print screen every single page, join together the pages (the top and bottom) and then they'd have to clone out the watermarks. By that time we would have already released the chapter available for download.

@Mika: What's the snipping tool? is it for ff?
canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 11:39 AM


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QUOTE
If they do this then they're just wasting their time. Most likely it'll take them three days just to do this--they'd have to print screen every single page, join together the pages (the top and bottom) and then they'd have to clone out the watermarks. By that time we would have already released the chapter available for download.


That's not always the case. Some people have monitors that go up to 2560x1600 (some even higher) in resolution. One print screen and that'll be it really (scroll below so you don't get the header, make sure most of the scan fits the page, etc etc). Most scanlations released, to my knowledge, are usually 1500px in height max (unless I'm wrong), so anyone with that resolution (which a number of people could have in the animanga community) could easily take screenshots. Simply cropping doesn't take long and erasing watermark is only if they want to (I've come across plenty with watermarks still on them).

--

As for manga hosting sites...if it's a site like MT where they have thousands of members uploading various files everyday, the management of the server AND the files becomes even more tiresome. It takes a lot of work to go through every file and make sure all of the information is correct, the files aren't corrupt, the members are uploading accordingly to the rules of every scanlation team, etc. Having ten to fifteen (or even twenty to thirty) people manage 8,000+ members is just insane. How many hours do you think is required to go through every member's uploads to make sure the files and information are accurate and/or according to every scanlation team's rules? Plus, any small error in the server causes chaos because, aside from managing all of the users and files, you then have to take care of whatever it is that's wrong with the server (be it hardware or software) as well as find a way to please the moronic idiots who don't understand that fixing a computer isn't always as easy as it sounds/looks.

*shrugs* That's how I see it anyway. It becomes chaotic just trying to manage a forum with 200+ members what with spam, pruning, forum dramas and the like. u__u I think the reason why they're all so anal and egotistical is because they've been surrounded by such immature whiny little children for so long, they can't be any other way (and by this, I don't mean scanlation teams, but more or less the fans who can't gain access to certain downloads because of server/network downtimes and/or people who don't understand that their internet's speed is the reason why the downloads are slow, not the server, etc).

I could be totally wrong and they might just be a bunch of asses though. o_O
kkaixi
Posted on May 24 2010, 01:55 PM


Clergy
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Oh right. :| I forgot that my computer is one crappy piece of shizz T__T

I think its' both. Even here, you see "when will _____ be released?" "Where can I access the downloads?" etc, etc. On MT it's probably even worse. But that doesn't give them any reason to rudely deny a scanlation group's requests. Unless, of course, that scanlation group confronted MT with extreme rudeness and did not think to consider MT's point of view.

I'm not sure how NOIR's staff treated MT staff, but from what I can gather, it was MT's staff that decided to be total assholes about this whole matter, causing NOIR to act on it.

canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 02:29 PM


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QUOTE
I'm not sure how NOIR's staff treated MT staff, but from what I can gather, it was MT's staff that decided to be total assholes about this whole matter, causing NOIR to act on it.


I doubt MT gives a rats behind about who's feelings they trample on anymore. I'm assuming that, at the beginning of the site, they cared. Then whiny little fans kept complaining about every little thing and eventually, they just gave up giving a crap. It doesn't matter people go to them respectfully/nicely or not, they'll probably reply in a somewhat sarcastic tone (that is, unless you're respectful and detailed as to why things should be done a specific way). They tend to think their logic and morals are above anyone else's (on their site anyway, which is true, I suppose)...so, trying to get them to cave won't work no matter what is done or said.

In short, it's something like...because I think the three day waiting period is kind of pointless as well as forcing members to post 10+ posts to gain access to downloads (which I do), I'm going to take all of the files I've downloaded on here, whether or not it was released yesterday, today or a year ago, and post it up somewhere public for anyone and everyone who wants access to it to have access to it. Why? Because I think the rules to getting the files are dumb and that people shouldn't have to put up with that bull to get the stuff they want. After all, what's the point of a scanlation if no one gets to read it?

That's their logic and they don't give two cents about trampling on anyone's feelings. It's as simple as, "It's stupid, so I'm not going to care about following it."

Then...for Operation Saver, I doubt it'll do much harm to MT, but I'd really like to see it be successful, so I wish all teams who choose to participate the best.
mikariangel
Posted on May 24 2010, 03:29 PM


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You're right, they probably don't. But if we make it so that we make them follow our rules, they can't do anything about it.

As for the 10+ posts for downloads, i really don't think it is pointless. I've done it before... and it really made me active on the forum. The first forum i knew was Starry Heaven, and at that time, they still had the post thingie (i'm not sure if they do now). But, i met a lot of cool people that way, and I just kept on posting there. If it was just open and free, the forum would literally be dead, because i know people like myself would not bother to go on there.

Also, i think the ten post thing might have some other kind of point.. I mean, it makes sure that the people who actually come on here and post and say stuff have an advantage over the people who don't know who we are and just read the manga? We need support too you know ><

I don't think we are really aiming to harm MT... just make them follow rules. I mean, if we really wanted to harm them, we could find a lot better ways than using Operation Saver.

About the japanese raws... it's not only the fact that we can't read them, but the fact that I CAN"T EVEN FIND A STORE THAT SELLS IT!!! If I could, i would go buy chinese raws and give money to the mangaka because i really love them and i really would love for them to make money off of this. I know a lot of the staff here are teens who don't have credit cards to buy anything, and idk about others, but my parents don't even approve of me reading manga >> I would really love to buy and scan these, if i really could find a place and money to buy it. Also, we do get some raws, like the one for SDSK is actually store bought and stuff, and most of the others are either online or from joints.

about managing the members with 200+ posts and all that... that's why we have forum mods and global mods ^^

LOL kkaixi: you're computer is really bad >> get a new one for your bday?

snipping tool is basically taking a screen shot. You can just cut out the screen instead of taking the whole desktop screenshot. It saves A LOT of time. I don't have one, but Inno used to use it all the time. That's where she got some of her raws.

You know what i don't get (sorry if i'm getting a little angry sounding here ><)? I think that since the people here are scanlating it, they should get the rights to do what they want. I know here, we have certain rules because we are afraid of bad releases sometimes (i think i've said that somewhere already o.O) and we just have to respect other groups rules sometimes.
Most people do use the three day rule, and other manga reading websites such as Mangafox and Onemanga all do it, so i really don't get why mangatraders can't.


kkaixi
Posted on May 24 2010, 03:52 PM


Clergy
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But that's the thing. OS wasn't made to do harm to MT. okay, originally, maybe a bit.... I dunno about the others but I've gotten over that myself. After that one-night spazmattack, I started to actually think about what we were doing. And in the end, it's not to bash MT because that would be pointless--this would not, as you said, harm them in any way whatsoever. As I've stated before, this is to protect scanlation groups and to ensure that their policy is followed.

obviously we still have to fix the print screen thing ...

And no. I realize that MT does could not care less, which is sad, because I consider myself and much of what makes up the world of scanlation to be fairly courteous and respectful (minus those leechers who only post spams about "where to find ____" etc.)

Myself, I don't see a point to the post count because when I met anyone, it was either over a chatbox, or on MSN. I just can't bring myself to check something daily unless it's a game post :| If we really wanted to harm them, we'd stop scanlating. We'd get as many groups as possible and we'd stop scanlating.

As stated by Mika, if I could find raws, I'd buy them. I'd buy as many as humanly possible for both RL and DS, and I'd probably try as hard as I could to scan for other groups as well. Why? Because I don't like to leech without giving something in return.

@mika, oh darn. >_>

Yeah. If all manga hosting sites did this, it'd be a different matter. But I've gone to MangaFox, OneManga, MangaVolume, MangaToshokan, MangaHelpers, and countless other sites, and they've all followed this rule. So why can't MT? However, I don't agree that we have rights to the manga. First of all, we're leeching off the mangaka ^^;;; Buying raws to scan in and show the internet isn't exactly what I'd call moral. But...what MT is doing is far from this as well. On top of that, they don't seem to care for other groups. Which is honestly what irks me the most about this whole situation. :|
canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 06:26 PM


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All of the raws I've purchased have been online. Seeing as the only place to really get the original in it's native language is from the native country itself, I buy it from online stores from and around Japan (or China, if you prefer Chinese raws). Shipping gets expensive, sure, but seeing as I'm a fan who supports the mangaka, I'll use what I have and buy what I can.

Even teens can work and earn their own money to buy whatever they please. I was a teenager when I worked and purchased my own manga (and raw mangas too). One of the stores I've found to be reliable with good and cheap RAW manga is Nippon Export (there's always Amazon Japan as well or YesAsia for Chinese/Japanese manga). I've purchased all current 13 raws I have from that place and their shipping is generally decently priced for overseas too.

As for the post count thing, for me, whether or not it's required, if I feel welcomed in a community, I will continue to post. If I don't, I'll stop after the required posts and then lurk around after that. I look for places that welcome me with open arms and is willing to accept me as part of them to be active in. I don't get that feeling in a lot of forums I join (or have joined recently) and quite honestly, most manga scanlation team forums I've joined aren't exactly the best at greeting and making new members feel like part of the "community"...which is why I feel the required posts are pointless. Then again, that's from my own personal experiences.

As for snipping tools, if I'm not mistaken, Macs can take specific screenshots of specific pieces of the screen without a special program. I haven't used a Mac in ages, but the last time I did use one (about five years ago...in high school xD), I was able to do it by pressing a specific combination of keys on the keyboard.

And, mods and admins or not, 200 members who posts about 5-20 posts a day is still a lot of posts to manage. Take that and jack it up to 8,000+ members with about 20-40 mods and it's still an insane amount to consider. If most of the members are dead, then it's a bit easier to manage.

Anyway, it means absolutely nothing though, considering that a forum/community such as Aarinfantasy, with 167349 members, can maintain and consider the rules of all the scanlation teams' projects posted on their forums (and their moderators are pretty good at making sure anyone who violates said rules gets their posts and uploads deleted properly). Unfortunately, that then falls back into each individual's set of ethics.

Personally, I feel that whether or not I think a rule is stupid, it should be obliged. People who believe "rules are set to be broken" or whatever are just...I dunno. There are some laws/rules that should be questioned (like in my state, it's illegal to sleep completely naked), but others are set for specific reasons (the wait periods could potentially be for control of distribution sake, I dunno). Ethically speaking, respecting the requests of the people who gave you the item would be the best way of going about things (like, if a raw provider didn't want you using their scans with or without credit, you don't use it).

---

To continue to raws thing, on YesAsia.com North America...you can get volumes 4-6 of the series you recently dropped (B-Wanted) for approximately $35.00 USD, standard shipping in Traditional Chinese. Buying raws isn't as expensive or entirely as difficult (unless you're looking for relatively unknown mangakas) as people make it out to be.
Vol 4: http://www.yesasia.com/global/b-wanted-vol...-0-en/info.html
Vol 5: http://www.yesasia.com/global/b-wanted-vol...-0-en/info.html
Vol 6: http://www.yesasia.com/global/b-wanted-vol...-0-en/info.html

I'm sure someone could afford to fork over $35 for a hobby they enjoy.
kkaixi
Posted on May 24 2010, 07:57 PM


Clergy
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LOL, just as a random note, the first thing I see when I open that window from the link to Nippon Export was "All Day I Dream About Sex" .___."

Anyway, yes, I wish I could be one of those people who can buy raws. Problem is, I'm under 18, and mummy and daddy don't let me buy things online. Ever. They don't even know about this scanlation stuff. And if they do know, they know very, very little. :|

QUOTE
I don't get that feeling in a lot of forums I join (or have joined recently) and quite honestly, most manga scanlation team forums I've joined aren't exactly the best at greeting and making new members feel like part of the "community"...which is why I feel the required posts are pointless.


Alright, soo. :) time for me to be all scanlator-y and responsible and ask: Why is it that you feel uncomfortable?

As for me, I've been pretty comfortable and able to make friends at most of the scanlation group forums I've joined (which isn't really much, so I can't really say much about that ._.") The few forums that I have joined, I've been greeted with welcomes and have found some friends to be with, either through the chat boxes, the forums itself, or MSN. I guess that's just my own personal experience though. Personally, because I'm lazy, (*gets shot for this*) I usually wait for the release to be uploaded on MangaFox. >____>" So .. I guess I haven't really had much experience with this *cough*
canbari
Posted on May 24 2010, 10:38 PM


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QUOTE
Alright, soo. :) time for me to be all scanlator-y and responsible and ask: Why is it that you feel uncomfortable?


Mm, it's probably just the way my personality is? I'm fairly introverted, so it takes a lot to get me to feel comfortable around people. Plus, when I go through the forum and see that I'm the person who's made the last comment on every forum...it makes me feel like perhaps I talk too much (which...I guess I do.. xD)

And...sorry about Nippon Export. o_O I'm not sure if it's because I've been there plenty and shopped there before that the preferences are set for me...but I don't see that.

Mm, lol. I feel like we've totally gone off topic. Sorry.
hira1994
Posted on May 25 2010, 01:34 AM


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QUOTE (canbari @ May 25 2010, 03:38 AM)
QUOTE
Alright, soo. :) time for me to be all scanlator-y and responsible and ask: Why is it that you feel uncomfortable?


Mm, it's probably just the way my personality is? I'm fairly introverted, so it takes a lot to get me to feel comfortable around people. Plus, when I go through the forum and see that I'm the person who's made the last comment on every forum...it makes me feel like perhaps I talk too much (which...I guess I do.. xD)

Haha, that's the same with me, I'm really introverted irl... but I'm somehow too chatty online O_o...

As for buying the raws, I really wish I could, but I'm under 18 as well, and my parents would seriously kill me, if they knew what I was reading in manga...(They disapprove if there's a kissing scene on tv...on a children's show...-_-), and another thing, I've recently moved to Saudi so the shipping is VERY high...and I'm legally not allowed to work here either...

On topic...err, I obviously support OS? Lol...
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