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WELCOME
We are a shoujo-based scanlation group founded on April 20th, 2008. We hope to bring you lots of good manga to read so please support us!

Happy bday, Domino
07.18.10

Rakuen Route ch5

You need 10 non-spam posts in our forums to access the releases!

RECRUITMENT
We are currently recruiting EDITORS, translators(j-e, k-e, c-e), quality checkers, and scanners! If you are interested, please visit the Recruitment section! You do not need to have experience to try for a translator, scanner, or editor position, we are willing to train newbies!

PROJECT STATUSES
Are you curious about how far into a chapter we are or when is the next release? Well then, check out our Twitter for instant updates and our full list of all our projects and their statuses.

WEBSITE
Please visit our website at: rebelliouslove.freehostia.com

Credits
Designed by Beatrix
Sidebar: Dana
Coding Help: RCR

 
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 What do you think, Rebellious Love?, Joining Operation Saver
 
After reading this, what do you think?
Yes! I support Operation Saver! Go for it! [ 23 ]  [79.31%]
No. MT has a point. Don't join it. [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
Either way is fine. [ 3 ]  [10.34%]
I've been uploading for MT before RL's waiting time is up (SHAME!) [ 0 ]  [0.00%]
I have an idea...I will post it in this thread... [ 3 ]  [10.34%]
Total Votes: 29
  
Candi
Posted on May 23 2010, 12:53 AM


for rebellion
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So recently, there's been a problem between the scanlators and the hosting sites.
A waiting period is a request of a scanlation group for people to respect the hard work that the staff did for online readers and for people who take the time to come onto our forum to thank us and talk with us to have an early grab on new releases.

Project NOIR's releases have been posted up by MangaTraders without following their waiting period. And this hasn't just happened to Noir. It's been happening for a while now for a LOT of other scanlation groups. While the staff at MangaTraders KNOW about the waiting periods set by each group, they purposely choose to ignore it. And what else; the people who have been trying to ask them for a proper apology to NOIR have been shot down (literally) by the staff.

What do I want to do? I, Candi, am very upset at this turn-out as well. To all you readers of RL, please think carefully for a moment. The people who scanlate the manga take time out of their lives to translate, edit, proofread, and whatever else to release manga to you. For those who haven't yet experienced it, there's many who have. We have spent hours trying to find the right idiom to use, the right comparison, the right SFX. We have spent hours ripping our hair out trying to clone something out to make the scans as pretty and neat as possible. It's actually really frustrating sometimes. We as in all scanlators. All of us. We aren't asking you to buy our scanlations, we aren't asking you to pay someone else to get it published in English either. We (RL) just wishes for the 3-day waiting period to be followed to benefit both the staff and our members who have taken the time to help build up the Rebellious Love community.

Operation Saver is named after Project NOIR's project, Saver. What OS does is that it will band together many scanlation groups to protest MangaTraders [spoiler: and especially what they say (ex:"Our rules are better than your rules, therefore we should ignore yours" or "stupid *** noir forum users" or "whiny little f*****s). /end spoiler]

What Operation Saver will do is protect the waiting periods of various groups participating in the protest. We (scanlators) hope to end MT's ignorance of our waiting periods. What do you hope for Rebellious Love? I want this opinion to be a majority group one. Would you like to be a part of this operation? Please vote in our poll your opinion or state a further opinion (opinion does not mean putting people down or flaming them) in this thread.

For people who want to see the thread that this originally took place in, here's the link:
http://forums.mangatraders.com/index.php?topic=5229.0

VOTING ENDS SOON


EDIT AS OF JUNE 24, 2010:
I'm closing this topic xD it drew in a lot more discussion than I expected o-o
So what's going to happen...
I thought it over the a couple days afterwards and kind of gave up on the idea. We're thankful to the people who respect our (as well as other peoples') waiting periods but really. I'd rather there be ________, _______________, and _________ people who would be ________ enough to post releases before a waiting period is over rather than spam in our forums (fill in the blanks <_< I cant be penalized for what I didnt say). The purpose we ask for these posts is to interest people in building a community here at Rebellious Love with us. It's useless if people just post one-liners that do nothing to contribute to the topic/community overall. Anyways, I could think of better uses of the manga we scanlate than to make people who can't use online viewers wait three more days than they used to if we did happen to make one.
mikariangel
Posted on May 23 2010, 12:59 AM


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Since I really have no better idea, I have to agree. We spend so much time on all this just for people to disobey our very simple rules????

Doesn't MT also get like a lot of donations?
How is this going to work btw?
Candi
Posted on May 23 2010, 01:06 AM


for rebellion
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Yes, MT gets a LOT of donations for just hosting up projects while most scanlators barely get any.
How it's going to work, I'm not going to go too much into detail. What I can say is that it will include an online manga reader for all the SGs (scanlation groups) involved in Operation Saver and the the zip file to download will be a bit harder for people to obtain before our waiting period is over.
canbari
Posted on May 23 2010, 01:31 AM


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Well, I kind of come from both ends of the stick. I'm part of a yaoi scanlation team that has a three day waiting period too. I come across sites (and Livejournal communities) that totally ignore that rule. At first, I was thoroughly frustrated that people couldn't follow such a simple rule, but after trying to fight a losing battle, I just kind of gave up (because all of my comments were constantly deleted too). I don't mean for you to give up though (I'm but a staffer in the scanlation team...and the project manager sometimes forgets about me being a staffer...xD)

Then, I also come from a community standpoint. MangaTraders is a large community with several staff members. What one staff member does should not represent the entire staff. If I'm not mistaken, the current head of staffers is currently working endlessly to resolve the hardware issues on MangaTraders. I do not believe this is an issue he feels should take priority when it's a possibility that the entire site itself may go down because the hardware is broken.

Also, considering that this is but one MT staffer doing this, she's obviously somehow or another gotten a way to get her hands on these manga. If people would just find her email or something and block her off their forums and/or IRC channels so that she can't get her hands on the manga, then wouldn't that be a little more reasonable?

A site as large as MT with so many staffers and members uploading anything and everything they want takes a lot of time and difficulty to moderate. I understand that, even so, they should still upkeep with the rules of scanlation teams, but I don't entirely think it's all of MT's fault.

However, if MT would just be a bit more reasonable, like Aarinfantasy Forums, and impose the rules of the scanlation teams, remove links, etc when asked, then it would be nice. Unfortunately, their organization of staff members and whatnot seems to be lacking. But even so, I think taking a more respectful route to the people who are actually providing the manga would be highly advisable to MT.

In short, what MT is doing is wrong. They shouldn't be ignoring the requests of scanlation teams when, without the scanlation teams, they'd have nothing to host. However, scanlation teams should consider sending private emails/PMs to the admins of MT who actually have authority over the files being uploaded rather than making public statements and trying to get their fellow fans and staffers to harass the site and have forum moderators, who can't do anything but moderate the forum.

Also, computer hardware and hosting fees are extremely expensive. I host/sponsor a few scanlation teams and several websites and pay roughly $600/year on my servers to keep my site and theirs up and running smoothly. Donations to lower the cost of these server fees are appreciated, but I hardly get any myself (and in truth, you scanlation teams get far more 'thank yous' than I have even from the teams that I host/sponsor files for). So, appreciate the fact that people even say thank you, whether or not they can donate money because, I don't even get the thank you for what I do.

I believe that it lies mostly at fault with the fans, not entirely MT or the scanlation teams. If the fans weren't so demanding and simply waited out the three days waiting period, it wouldn't be such an issue. Taking it out on MT for trying to please the fans (who donate to them) is a bit silly. It's like telling Barnes and Noble not to allow orders or sales on books until three days after the release, even if fans truly want it. Obviously, B&N needs to stay afloat, so they're going to (consider) sell(ing) it (although in truth, they probably won't because legalities come into play for that scenario). In this case, it's an issue of ethics and whether or not fans and staffers of MT chooses to abide by them. In which case, it unfortunately does not seem to be the case.

All in all, I'd love to see Operation Saver be successful. Perhaps it'll teach MT a lesson in appreciating scanlation teams. If a huge forum like Aarinfantasy can do it, I don't see why MangaTraders can't.
hira1994
Posted on May 23 2010, 02:04 AM


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QUOTE (Candi @ May 23 2010, 06:06 AM)
Yes, MT gets a LOT of donations for just hosting up projects while most scanlators barely get any.
How it's going to work, I'm not going to go too much into detail. What I can say is that it will include an online manga reader for all the SGs (scanlation groups) involved in Operation Saver and the the zip file to download will be a bit harder for people to obtain before our waiting period is over.

And I think it might even be possible, to not have the 'save image' thing come up when right clicking on the image? Then they would need to 'print screen' which even reduces the quality, and makes it veryy hard to save them. I've seen images where that's been done ^^

QUOTE
If the fans weren't so demanding and simply waited out the three days waiting period, it wouldn't be such an issue. Taking it out on MT for trying to please the fans (who donate to them) is a bit silly.


Actually, if you look at the thread Candi's posted, it would show how rude the staff of MT is acting towards the fans of the manga. And his email is hidden, and you can't see it or their ip, unless you're a mod at MT or something, so there's no way to ban the user either from Noir.
canbari
Posted on May 23 2010, 02:45 AM


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QUOTE (hira1994 @ May 23 2010, 07:04 AM)
Actually, if you look at the thread Candi's posted, it would show how rude the staff of MT is acting towards the fans of the manga. And his email is hidden, and you can't see it or their ip, unless you're a mod at MT or something, so there's no way to ban the user either from Noir.

I'm not referring to the fans in support of the scanlation teams. I'm referring to the fans of the manga who will do anything and everything to get their manga fixes, even if it means disregarding the rules of the scanlation teams, which, obviously, will be the ones supporting MT in what they're doing. The only reason why a site such as MT is so popular and successful is to feed the supply and demand need. If the need wasn't so high (and/or laziness of waiting a whole 72 hours), MT wouldn't be necessary.

As for contacting the administrators of MT, if you can't find the email address publicly on the website, you can always look up the registrant listed for the domain of mangatraders.com. They don't have WHOIS Privacy setup, so the email address is readily available for anyone who looks it up. Yukimura and Deadfire's email addresses are available on their MT Forum profile and if anything else, one could always send them a PM if they're also members of the MT forum. The forms of contact are there.

Do note that I'm not here to try to stick up for MT. I have absolutely no reason to be on their side. Quite personally, I'm more about ethics and following the rules set by scanlation teams because I know how difficult and time consuming it is to release just one chapter. Unfortunately, I think the administrators of MT are more worried about their current hardware issues than netiquette and showing appreciation for the teams who work hard for the content on MT.

Anyway, I've only read a few posts on the thread posted by Candi and the post linked to Yenkaz's comments or whatever it is. Stupid people will remain stupid no matter how much you try to discuss with them. However, going above them usually does the trick, unless they are the main man then you'll have to find another way around it.
MeganeM
Posted on May 23 2010, 04:32 AM


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Warning: will be playing as devil's advocate sometimes.

To put it out there first: what we're doing truly -is- "morally and legally ambiguous", as quoted by Yenkaz from MT. Scanlating manga has so many grey areas around the law that it's difficult to pinpoint whether or not we -really- have the rights from the get go to scanlate manga. Obviously, there's a blind eye turned to scanlated manga; Onemanga and Mangafox have existed for a while without any sort of government lawsuit. Plus, if there really is a manga series that needs to be taken down, either the Japanese authors or English publishing groups will send cease or desist letters to the respective scanlating groups.

So...I'm not sure if scanlating groups are actually allowed in the first place to put in such rules about waiting periods or minimum post counts. I've personally never thought about it, but after a quick browse of the forum wars on MT, I've found that this user Yenkaz really does have a point sometimes. Who are we to actually impose to this rule and other rules stating that they need a certain number of posts to get our manga? It's also painfully obvious that some posts are "blank" posts to get manga.

And if we're actually really pissed off, fine. We have a few options here: 1) Tell MT specifically that they don't have the rights to host our manga. 2) We don't distribute manga outside our forums--no Onemanga, no Mangafox, etc. All people who want manga--come make your posts, etc and then download. 3) Get an online reader like Eclipse scans. (but I don't know if that will cost a lot of money.) We will still get web traffic, RL is still known to the Internet.

In general, it's a good point about whether waiting periods and post counts are "legal"...but we have ways to work around it. I don't think I was very much help, but I just wanted to throw out the "opposing" side's argument.

To be honest, though...it really would be nice if people came around to thank us instead of complaining when the next chapter would come out...(We have over 3500 registered users, and only 10, if we're lucky, come to say "thanks" on the forum release thread...) It won't kill you to say "thank you", and yes, I am one of those people who spends quite a bit of time determining proper sentence structure. All my work, however, is my free will, and I'm not getting pay out of it. (Therefore, it could go without saying that we don't have the true "right" to be respected or thanked.)
kkaixi
Posted on May 23 2010, 10:17 AM


Clergy
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@Megane, I agree with you completely.

Personally, I'm against MT uploading before the waiting period is over. This has happened to DS as well, and we've sent out an email to try to stop it--evidently, it's not going to work. >_>

The problem is, MT does have a point against us, as Megane said. I'm all for OS and everything but...when it comes down to it, we aren't doing this legally. And most of us are well aware of it, but we do it anyway. Yes, it's true, we are disrespecting mangaka by doing this. But...seeing as this hasn't had any problems so far, and nobody seems to care, I guess we're just going to keep on doing this. The problem with MT is that they're doing it, and we DO care. And also? I see their point. In uploading before the waiting period is over, that is. I completely see their side of that. They have a site to run, to keep up, to maintain viewers and popularity. Yes, I'm aware of this. The problem I have is that in that thread, the staff ALL ganged up on the members against MT's ways and bashed them in as rude a manner as possible. What ever happened to etiquette? I bet you anything, those same staff are the ones to close a topic when flaming gets out of control. Yet those same staff start a flame war of their own? Whatever happened to [yes, it's lame and cheesy] setting an example? If they'd replied to that thread politely, I doubt many of us would be as infuriated as we are now.

Also, we WOULD like the viewers to thank us. I find it pretty dumb that us, the scanlators, who spend hours upon hours of time (I would know--pretty much all of my free time is dedicated to scanlating manga. I stay up to 1:00-2:00 every morning doing homework, because I edited blah-blah-blah chapter before I started on homework, and had no time to do homework) receive hardly any thanks, whereas MT receives $900 in donations monthly just so that they can break our rules? Yes, I realize, much of that money goes to the site itself. But we spend money on this stuff too. We spend money on raws, on sites, on forums...it's often not cheap either.

So my end point is, I think both OS and MT are right. MT is right in the fact that we have no right [har-har, I told you my vocab sucks] to hold them back. OS is right in that we deserve respect from the readers. I think basically what made my decision in the end was the staff's utter disrespect for anyone that went against them, and the fact that even though many groups have asked for them to stop doing this, they still continue to blatantly ignore every single one of us and forage on, not caring about anyone else on the Internet. Running a scanlation group is hard, you guys. And even as a staff, it's hard. It's time consuming and takes a lot--a LOOT of dedication. Plus? We've got about 345823579235823798 projects that we have to handle at the SAME time, to keep readers happy. We care about the readers. Why in the ['scuse my language] hell would we be doing this otherwise?

Also, Operation Saver doesn't even bash MT in the least. It just ensures that WE, as in all the scanlation groups involved in this, receive the tiny amount of respect that we ask for.

</rant>
Candi
Posted on May 23 2010, 01:46 PM


for rebellion
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</wow, long posts>

Yes, @ whoever has the idea of the online reader. We're gunna get one. But it's going to be for all the SG groups participating (hard to explain >_<)
It IS possible code it so that there's no way to right-click and save the image. And we're thinking of adding watermarks to the scans for the pre-zip file releases.

@People who think we need to talk to an admin:
someone's already done that and told us that they had the exact same view (without the cussing)

@the IP-ban idea: I had the idea. But uh 1, they could get someone else to upload, not just the staff uploads. And 2, the way I was thinking of getting their IPs would be kinda mean ^^''

@ccanbari: that's exactly what I'm saying o-o It's awful expensive to host a website (in ur case esp) and I personally find it sad that most manga-hosting sites get more donations than SGs that scanlate. (We don't have the problem so I can't complain from personal experience)
Oh and (off topic but) which scanlation group would that be? ^^
canbari
Posted on May 23 2010, 04:07 PM


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I work for a yaoi scanlation team called Countless Time (countless-time.tasuu.net). I have nothing really against my team, but when I'm forgotten as a fellow member, it does kind of hurt sometimes. ~__~ We have a three day waiting period, with the first three days of release being only available on IRC. Unfortunately, people who have access to IRC download the file then upload it to a place like MediaFire and share it with others on various livejournal communities.

As for legalities, in this case, neither party are in the right. Even if the profit MT makes is for it's server maintenance only, it's still not right to host copyrighted materials on their servers. Even if the copyright is from Japan, it's still legal. In that, it's also illegal for scanlation teams to scanlate and stake claims on projects (and trust me, I've come across so many project battles between scanlation teams, it makes me want to cry as I had thought we were all adults who could settle things peacefully, but apparently not). So, we can completely drop the idea of legality in terms of scanlation teams and manga hosting sites. The main issue here shouldn't be who's legally in the right, because neither team is. The issue should be who is ethically right.

Who can stake the claim on the manga? The team who worked hard to make it available for others? Or the people who have it readily available for anyone to download? Without the first, the second wouldn't have anything to provide. However, the second also helps boost the first in terms of hits and whatnot (and trust me, when I come across a really good project by a scanlation team, I will go to the scanlation team's website and check out other projects by them). So, both are kind of in a win-win situation with one another.

The issue then comes into play when the second disregards the requests of the first. Without the shared respect and understanding between the first and second group, it becomes an endless vicious cycle of hate and flames. If the second group decides to completely ignore the requests of the first group and all people in the first group then decide to stop doing what they do, then the second group then becomes useless. However, if the first group decides to retaliate against the second group, the result may not be as fatal, but the fan base will probably drop dramatically. For example, if all scanlation teams decided that they'd only provide their releases on IRC from this time to that time and everyone followed the rule to not share it anywhere else, I would probably choose to stop reading scanlations altogether rather than learn how to work IRC.

I'm not entirely sure if anything I said was of any use. However, it's how I feel between the relationship between scanlation teams and manga hosting sites. If a hosting site refuses to follow the respective requests of the people who chose to take time out of their busy schedules to give us something because they enjoyed it and wish for us to enjoy it with them, then perhaps they shouldn't host the files. Unfortunately, getting everyone who supports those manga hosting sites to follow the scanlation teams rather than the hosting sites is impossible.

And, I don't like scanlation teams that require a specific amount of posts before gaining access to downloads. I understand requiring membership, but posts is just...I don't know, stupid? Coming from a website point of view, forcing members to post when they only do it to gain post count does nothing but waste website resources (database, space, load time, etc). The more you have spammage and worthless posts on your forums, the longer it'll take to load the site/forum. You'll always have your few active members and then your lurkers. That's how all communities are and that's how they'll always be. Forcing a post count will make them reach the post count then stop posting altogether. In short, it's also more work for the admins as they'll probably have to prune later on too.
kkaixi
Posted on May 23 2010, 04:21 PM


Clergy
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LOL@CANDI.

Okay. My viewpoint is basically the same as canbari's. For me, it's more of the waiting period issue rather than the posts...I do admit, there are a lot of spammers around. Lurkers? I'm one myself. ^^;;

Nevertheless, I still go for this idea because it satisfies both the scanlators and the manga hosting sites. Scanlators get their waiting period, and manga hosting sites still get to upload. In my opinion, it's a win-win situation.
Candi
Posted on May 23 2010, 04:31 PM


for rebellion
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</once again>

@Canbari: -squee- Countless Time <3 I love the banner ;]

@everyone: I'm not gunna further state any more of my opinions in this matter ^^' It's like the issue of gay marriage. Will there ever be a right answer? (Don't answer this.)

From what I'm gathering, I'm gettiing a 'Yes' from kkaixi and a 'either way' from Canbari. Right?
kkaixi
Posted on May 23 2010, 04:50 PM


Clergy
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I believe that's correct. In any case, you can tell the majority from the poll, right?
canbari
Posted on May 23 2010, 07:58 PM


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I voted either way on the poll, so yes, I'm either way on whether or not RL joins the OS project. It's good to stand up for what you believe in, so if you're against what MT's doing, then by all means, join the project. It's a great idea, after all.

Generally speaking, I'm a lurker on most forums I'm part of as well. I post when there's something I really want to say, but other than that, I just sit around reading posts that interest me and/or downloading files I find interesting. There was one scanlation team that I had wanted to download some projects from, but their forum requirement was to have 35 non-spam posts. That's simply ridiculous, in all honesty. I can understand a required 5-15 posts, but going 20 or above is insane. I've been on Aarinfantasy forums since 2006 and I only have a total of 64 posts. I've grown weary of trying to do the whole community bonding on forums because I've realized that because I'm an outsider whom most people don't know, most of my replies are ignored and passed over, as if I never said anything to begin with...so I end up conversing with myself really. I don't get the whole "community" feel...which is why I end up lurking more than posting.

@Candi: I love the CT banner too. xD Makoto Tateno is one of my favorite mangakas as well...and I'm "Megori" on the team (and most everywhere else I'm part of as well).
kkaixi
Posted on May 23 2010, 08:36 PM


Clergy
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QUOTE
There was one scanlation team that I had wanted to download some projects from, but their forum requirement was to have 35 non-spam posts. That's simply ridiculous, in all honesty.


..........>_______>;;;;; 35, eh...
As much as I hate to admit it, you're right. *cough*...
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