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 Aa77 Reported Coords?
crazy horse
Posted: Jan 29 2008, 01:42 AM


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I downloaded the tabular data from the above Pinned FDR post. I did see something interesting. The data at 9:37:44 indicates what I assume to be the current position of the aircraft. Which is coordinates N3852',W07725. I punched those coordinates into Google Earth, and I get a location 19.18 miles to the west of the Pentagon. (Try it) Now at the speed it was going 460Kts the most it should have been is 775 ft away 1 second from the reported impact time. Now I know Google Earth may not be completely accurate, but I don't see it being 19 miles off. Am I missing something here??? This (Like everything else) doesn't add up!! The Pentagons coords are N3852',W07703

This post has been edited by crazy horse on Jan 29 2008, 01:51 AM
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rob balsamo
Posted: Jan 29 2008, 04:36 AM


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dMole
Posted: Jan 30 2008, 05:59 PM


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QUOTE (crazy horse @ Jan 28 2008, 11:42 PM)
Now I know Google Earth may not be completely accurate, but I don't see it being 19 miles off.


Hi Crazy Horse,

Google Earth has some known "bugs." See the following page:

http://www.googleearthcoolplaces.com/bugs.php

Since Earth is not a perfect sphere, different mapping models give different results, and Google Earth is pretty new software. I put the the "a77.2_complete.csv" locations at Counters 151761 (9:37:44 EDT) and 151764 (9:37:47, last "valid" data entry) into TopoUSA.

Counter 151761 (9:37:44 EDT, N38.86001 W77.08477 ) was 1.50 nautical miles (nm) from the Pentagon, at heading 244.3 degrees clockwise (SW) from geographical North. The nearest Arlington, VA address is 2724 13th St S, and the elevation there shows 181 feet. Pressure altitude of AA77 shows 496 feet, radar altitude shows 492 feet here.

Counter 151764 (9:37:47 EDT, last data point at N38.86293 W77.07773 ) was 1.12 nm from the Pentagon, heading 245.1 degrees. The nearest address to here is 2010 12th St S, and the elevation shows 159 feet. Pressure altitude of AA77 shows 238 feet and radar altitude shows 273 feet here. Then there are 2 lines of "#ERROR" listed in the ""a77.2_complete.csv" data.

I got a distance between these 2 points of 2266.5 feet at a heading of 62 degrees. This gives an average velocity of 447.6 kts (515.1 smph or 755.5 fps) for these last 3 seconds. All of these were done using the NAD27 (North American Datum 1927) datum. If I use the newer WGS84 (World Geodetic System) datum, then these 2 data points are both moved another 90-100 feet further westward of the "OCT"/Pentagon wall. The NAD27 setting in TopoUSA gives a Pentagon location of N38.87091 deg W77.05594 deg, with an elevation of 35 feet. The light poles would have been about 60-75 feet elevation according to my map, depending on location.

At the last CAS of 460 kts (776.3925342666 fps), my calculations say that Counter 151764 is -8.772881886 seconds away from the Pentagon location above. If I use the last TAS of 464 knots (783.143773695 fps), Counter 151764 is -8.697253594 seconds away from the above Pentagon location. The AA77 FDR data does show a longitudinal acceleration around 0.27 g, so speed was presumably increasing.

I did find it interesting that you can't even SEE the Pentagon location in the 3D rendering of TopoUSA viewed from 946 feet above Counter 151764 (there is a hill in between the S Columbia Pike/244 and the I-395 obstructing Pentagon line-of-sight). That is as low as the software would let me view from, and I expect that the Pentagon view would be considerably less at 270 feet altitude than at 946 feet. The Pentagon location came into view just above 2000 feet in the 3D rendering. I believe there's at least one helicopter pilot around here that can confirm what I mean about line-of-sight and altitude. Of course, my software only has 5 digits of latitude and longitude degree precision.

That's a pretty amazing, boxcutter-worthy feat- using about 8.7 seconds' worth of "anti-time" to fly into a building over the horizon that you can't even see, and the FDR does not indicate getting within 6500 feet of the Pentagon... blink.gif

Hmmm, that makes me wonder how close the last AA11 & UA175 RADES data locations are to the former WTC Tower locations now...

This post has been edited by dMole on Jan 30 2008, 05:59 PM
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rob balsamo
Posted: Jan 30 2008, 06:47 PM


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QUOTE (dMole @ Jan 30 2008, 05:59 PM)
and the FDR does not indicate getting within 6500 feet of the Pentagon... blink.gif


Incorrect....

The FDR indicates the aircraft was within ~1600 feet based on last recorded DME off DCA. Unfortunately for the govt story, the altitude indicates way too high to hit the light poles and pentagon for the same time frame the DME was recorded.
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dMole
Posted: Feb 4 2008, 11:24 PM


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Hi Rob,

I've found a couple of things while looking at the DME vs. Inertial Lat/Lon position issue. I also re-convinced myself that GPS is the better way to go. wink.gif

First, if I synchronize the "counter" (or data line number) 146555 at 08:10:46 EDT (from the data in columns GMThr 12, GMTmin 10, GMTsec 46) and increment each counter by one second then I get "counter" 151764 to come out synchronized to the second at 09:37:47 EDT. It looked like the column GMTsec is only updated every 4 seconds, since counters 151762, 151763, and 151764 all read 13:37:45 GMT or 09:37:45 EDT. Incrementing by one second after the first second (in each set of 4 identical seconds) seemed like a good way to handle the timestamps to me. This gave me 5221 seconds of elapsed flight data (or 1 hr 27 mins 1 sec after 08:10:46 EDT before the "# ERROR" entries started. Of course 09:37:47 is 2 seconds after the NTSB reported impact and 3 seconds after the animation ends as I recall...

I did find something strange in the following columns: GMTyear_X10 GMTyear_X1 GMTmon_X10 GMTmon_X1 GMTgpssec GMTgpsmin GMTgpshour GMTday_X10 GMTday_X1

These columns likely won't show up in Excel if you read the big file- they are past the 256-column IV "width" limit, and I had to split file ""a77.2_complete.csv" into 7 files to get around the Excel limit. I also copied the counter/timestamp columns to each of the 7 files.

After counter 146645, all the counters/data lines showed GMTyear 38, GMTmon 03, GMTday 00, and GPS time of 31:31:00. I've generally seen 12 or 24-hour clocks- where is hour 31 exactly?

I found the same altitudes that you did in your most recent video- nice work there. cheers.gif I'll assume that the ~4000 foot discrepancy I found in columns NAVlat and NAVlon is "normal" for inertial navigation systems after viewing your new video.

I'll post my DME and Pentagon distances in another post here shortly to keep the topics separate.
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rob balsamo
Posted: Feb 5 2008, 01:47 AM


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QUOTE (dMole @ Feb 4 2008, 11:24 PM)
This gave me 5221 seconds of elapsed flight data (or 1 hr 27 mins 1 sec after 08:10:46 EDT before the "# ERROR" entries started. Of course 09:37:47 is 2 seconds after the NTSB reported impact and 3 seconds after the animation ends as I recall...


This is interesting.. however... you should call me on such analysis first because i can barely keep up.. and if i can barely keep up... no one else here will...

Laymans terms....

It appears you are telling us that a Sloppy Joe has "so many ground beef kernals".. .while i've already eaten the same Sloppy Joe and told everyone it was in fact.. .a Sloppy Joe....

(did i mention i love Sloppy Joes?)


wink.gif

Call me d.. .we'll get it together for others. You are still posting as a scientist rather than an instructor....
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dMole
Posted: Feb 5 2008, 02:37 AM


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According to the following, Google Earth uses the WGS84 datum:

http://earth.google.com/userguide/v4/ug_importdata.html

"Google Earth uses Simple Cylindrical projection for its imagery base. This is a simple map projection where the meridians and parallels are equidistant, straight lines, with the two sets crossing at right angles. This projection is also known as Lat/Lon WGS84." [I'm not convinced about the WGS84 "cylindrical/parallel" part though.]

My earlier TopoUSA pentagon coordinates were for the building's center. To estimate the western wall impact location, I used a CAD program to draw model of a regular pentagon with sides of 921 feet in length (like the building). The internal angles were 108 degrees, and I got some corner coordinates and distances. As near as I could tell from Google Maps and the Pentagon access roads, the north wall of the building is rotated slightly more than 11 degrees counterclockwise from "horizontal."

The short version: my Pentagon drawing in TopoUSA puts the impact location very near N38.87102 W77.05820, where the ground elevation shows 36 feet. As near as I could tell from Google Earth, it was pretty close at N38.87102 W77.05563 (or +38 52' 15.67", -77 3' 29.52").

For the DCA beacon, my Google Earth version 4.2.0205.5730 gave a location of N38.8594556 W77.0364500 (or N38deg 51' 34.04" W77deg 02' 11.22"). I think these were very close to UnderTow's numbers in the DCA DME thread, and I got the same results when setting Google Earth for deg/min/sec or fractional degrees when I verified the arcmin (1/60th degree) & arcsecond (1/3600th degree) conversions.

Entering this beacon reference point into TopoUSA, I found these WGS84 coordinates to be 98.3 feet WSW (bearing 244.6 degrees from Geographic North) of the NAD27 coordinate values for the DCA beacon- not a huge difference, but worth keeping in mind. Alternately, WGS84 coordinates are nearly 100 feet "west" of the NAD27 coordinates near the Penatagon.

The following page gives the DCA beacon as:
Lat/Long: 38-51-34.031N / 077-02-11.166W (38.8594531/-77.0364350)
Elevation: 9 ft.
Variation: 09W (1985)
http://www.airnav.com/cgi-bin/navaid-info?...name=WASHINGTON

Another page was close to the above for DCA:
N38-51.6 N38.8600
W077-02.2 W77.03666667
http://www.acukwik.com/airportinfo/KDCA

Strangely the airnav.com website also [likely incorrectly] says the DCA beacon is at:
N38.8520833 38d 51' 7.5"
W77.0377222 77d 2' 15.79992"
http://www.airnav.com/airport/DCA
[Curiously, the 1.5nm DME arc from this "beacon" location intersects the "Pentagon approach line" below very near the impact location]

The alleged AA77 FDR ""a77.2_complete.csv" data did have a column called NAVtrackangletrue which showed 61.2 [assumed degrees] for the last 5 counters/seconds of valid data. If valid, this data should help triangulate AA77's position more closely.

If I reverse the 61.2 degree "true track angle" heading and draw an "approach" line at 241.2 degrees from the approximate Pentagon impact location, I got the 1.5nm DME arc to intersect this "Pentagon approach line" at N38.867231 W77.066994. According to TopoUSA, this was about 2930-2940 feet from the impact coordinates above (using WGS84 datum), and the elevation is 135 feet here.

If I use the NAD27 datum, the 1.5nm DME arc intersects a little closer to the Pentagon impact location at N38.867462 W77.066470. TopoUSA places this at 2775-2780 feet away from the impact location, and the elevation is 122 feet here.

Again because of the nearby hills, I needed to view from somewhere above 1650 feet elevation to even see the Pentagon impact location in the 3D view near the 2 "arc intersection" locations above.

Using a 350 foot slant correction, the RADES distance calculator program gave me 2710.844 feet for the closer NAD27 location and 2880.753 for the WGS84 location three paragraphs above.

The following calculator page gave me 2687.75feet for NAD27 and 2859.03 feet for WGS84:
http://williams.best.vwh.net/gccalc.htm

I got 2681.941 feet for NAD27 and 2852.857 feet for WGS84 at the following:
http://www.wherearewe.co.nz/greatcircle.html

I believe that your newest video gave a distance of 2695 feet. I'd call this quite good agreement using several different methods.

EDIT: Sorry Rob, I hadn't seen your reply when I posted this. I hadn't seen the NAVtrackangletrue info before but I may have missed it somewhere. You are probably correct that I'm likely chasing a decimal point or two while the pressure and radar altitudes pretty well call "Bushit" on the OCT.

This post has been edited by dMole on Feb 5 2008, 03:21 AM
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rob balsamo
Posted: Feb 5 2008, 03:51 AM


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QUOTE (dMole @ Feb 5 2008, 02:37 AM)
The alleged AA77 FDR ""a77.2_complete.csv" data did have a column called NAVtrackangletrue which showed 61.2 [assumed degrees] for the last 5 counters/seconds of valid data. If valid, this data should help triangulate AA77's position more closely.

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dMole
Posted: Feb 16 2008, 05:08 AM


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The file server I've been using is back up tonight. Here is a 2D map and a 3D rendering that I used above. These are probably much easier for most than my descriptions above.

2D Map notes- orange line & gray pin are from DCA using WGS84 coordinates.
blue line & yellow pin are from DCA using NAD27 coordintes (both are 1.5 nautical miles from DME).
Green line is the "close" distance that Rob and I had fairly good agreement on.
Red line is the reversed 61.2 degree "southern approach" heading line- the distance doesn't really matter.
The coordinate flags were set for WGS84 coordinates, but the difference is only about 99 feet, mostly westward (the small red section between the blue and orange lines)

2D map:
http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2571390805.html

3D rendering viewed from 1657 feet and -13 degrees "pitch" near the 1.5 nautical mile DCA DME intersections (I still couldn't "see" the Pentagon when changing pitch, and it messed with the viewing "location").

http://www.orbitfiles.com/download/id2571391336.html

Also, the final RADES radar echo for AA77 was at 13:37:47.810 Zulu (GMT) time (09:37:47.810 A.M. EDT). The coordinates were N 38.8682 W -77.0610, but no height data was obtained by the PLA radar (The Plains, VA) in the Excel file at that time. I'll try to get these 2 files updated with the final RADES location within the hour.

So, does one want to believe DME, primary radar, inertial navigation, eyewitnesses, NTSB, photos, those 5 crappy frames of "video," or ??

HINT: It CANNOT be all of the above.
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