DC re-introduces an established character as gay now

Just to clear things o my part. I have about the same number of gay and hetero friends. Heck, my best friend is gay. This so that there is no misunderstanding here of anyone thinking this pisses me off due to any type of phobia or whatnot. What pisses me off is the fact that they couldn't create a new gay character but are now going to re-introduce an established character as gay. Which character? Anyone's guess at this time. :swearing:

It really doesn't bother me, but that's mostly because I've just decided to go with the fact that this is a new universe. For me, all the charactes I love still exist in my old stories, and I can enjoy them over and over. I'm all for seeing new takes on stuff now.

As for making a new gay character, there are a few DC has tried, but new characters just don't seem to find enough of a base to justify keeping. They seem to end up as cannonfodder pretty quickly.

I'm curious to see who it is, and how DC handles it. But it won't really bother me either way.

But, I can also understand your concern about changing an established character so drastically. ^_^

Imagine they reintroduce Wally, but he's gay now? :lol: That will piss off some fans. I agree that they really shouldn't be changing around established characters sexualities, but in the end it won't piss me off or bother me. As long as its not something totally out of left field like our boy Nightwing or someone like Hal Jordan :lol: Known lady killers. As long as I can believe it, it won't bother me.

Robinson gave a podcast interview on comic vine stating that Wonder Woman wasn't the last amazon on Earth 2 like she thought. People are guessing Donna Troy will show up there, maybe as a lesbian now?

Elongated man wore lots of purple, but man his marriage to Sue was one for the ages, so hope not there.

Raven has yet to be introduced and I could see her as a possibility.

Where's the new Aqualad too?

I'm guessing it's the usual. New characters are harder to sell than established ones. New books featuring new characters are generally gone in a couple of years. Minorities (racial or sexual) are generally a harder sell. So a new book about a gay character is already starting out with two strikes against it.

That being said, my biggest beef when Renee Montoya was outed was that I'd been toying with writing a fanfic pairing her with Bruce Wayne and now it was basically off the table.

I guess if it's a character I care about, the orientation won't stop me caring. If it's a character I don't care about, the orientation won't prompt me to start reading.

And if the book ends up being "look! look! We're inclusive and progressive. The character is gay! Isn't that cool?" I'll be even less likely to buy it.

I read comics for escape, but that escape is about equal parts plot and character. Romance? Eh... as long as it's not the focal point.

What if it turns out that Superman is gay and that he was not pining for Lois Lane but secretly was in love with her boyfriend and then turned to his pal Jimmy Olsen as a love interest?

For some reason, when i first read the story this is who I thought of first.

Hmmmm.... Has anyone seen if Jason has slept with any girls since the reboot? I don't follow RHatO so I can't say. He is well stablished by now. :blink:

I thought it was established that Todd likes his meat...

It's a guy

Iconic male? Let the speculation begin.

Devin Grayson isn't writing Nightwing any time soon is she???

I'm starting to wonder if it'll be Tim Drake. One of the current Teen Titans is gay and that could lead to Tim opening up about his sexuality.

Batwing also strikes me as a possibility. I mean, it is Winick writing it...

Looking at the June solicitations we have:
All the watchmen stuff launching (one of them maybe?)

The birds of prey solicitaiton reads: BLACK CANARY discovers something amazing about her powers!

That's about all I can find there. Anyone else?

Iconic, male, not yet introduced. Unless they're going with an Earth-2 incarnation, in which case the floor is wide open...

Well, it could be A Flash (Jay or Wally), A GL (Kyle or Alan)... has anyone seen Ray Palmer lately? Hawkman?

The iconic Bats have all appeared so far.

Well, I haven't ever really broadcast the fact here on these boards at all, since its just one part of the whole "me", so I'm not sure if my friends here know it or not, but I'm gay. So, as you can imagine, this news was of particular interest to me. There's so many points I'd like to make, that I don't even know where to begin...

First off, to brannahdel (and everyone else!) I just want to say that you shouldn't have to feel like you need to apologize, in advance for your opinions, or that anything you say might be misconstrued as being homophobic. I hate that our society does that to people. It should be ok to politely, but enthusiastically, state your opinion on something controversial, without having to fear the "other side" is going to accuse you of being 'phobic'. I just wish that this country...this WORLD...could go back to having civil discourse about a topic, without everything turning into a mudslinging contest! But in any case, rest assured that if we have disagreements on this subject, it is not because I think you, or anyone else here is homophobic...its just a difference of opinion!

As far as the topic at hand, the best way for me to talk about it, is to describe how I felt when I heard this on Sunday. First, I was excited. I was really, REALLY excited. I was hopeful that they would pick one of my favorite characters, so that I'd end up having him be more like me than ever before. And then, I was mad. Annoyed is probably the correct word. The cynic in me KNOWS why DC is doing this, and its NOT for the best interest of society in general, or anyone else. Its a pure marketing move, and I DON'T appreciate being 'pandered' to. But finally I thought about what a gay teenage comic fan somewhere out there was thinking at that moment. Someone who hadn't, like me, learned yet that life does get better as you get older. Someone who might very likely be living under the thought that he was so different than ANYONE else, that he could never fit in. And I realized that, this one little move, no matter how small or immaterial it might be to any of us older (and more jaded) comic readers, might be the single ray of sunshine that was needed to keep that kid alive. It may sound dramatic, but you'd be surprise how SMALL of a thing can keep a person (especially a kid!) from thinking the world is hopeless. And if that's the case, than I think we can all find a way to deal with this 'change' to our character.

In terms of changing an established character, I can understand other reader's being less than thrilled with the idea. But Will makes a good point...the whole UNIVERSE was rebooted. There are changes happening left and right. This is just another of those changes. And the point of it is to have gay characters with VISIBILITY...you just can't seem to get that with new characters. Sadly, as has already been said, new characters just don't get the same traction, especially ones that start off with an instant "strike against them" in some readers eyes. And to extrapolate the comics universe, to our "real" universe, it just has to be mentioned that people come out ALL the time. People who you don't know about, and who you think have been straight all their lives. Sometimes people just have confusion and don't know what they want. Some people are really good at hiding it. And some people have it buried down so deep within themselves, that they don't even realize it themselves until late in life. So, with a good writer, it's COMPLETELY plausible to have an established character, who was formerly written only as a straight character, to now finally start taking the steps of coming out of the closet. It happens, every day, so why not in comics too?

Lastly, I just want to throw my hat into the ring of guessing. For my money, it's either Tim Drake, or Wally West. I'm guessing Wally though. The fans have been clamoring for a comeback from him for so long, and I think that bringing him back, but making him gay would be the ultimate dig from Dan Didio. I don't know if they are mean enough to do that to so many people though. For me, it would be great...my second favorite character would be more like me in this new universe. What's not to like about that. I still have the old story, so I wouldn't be losing any of his "first" history. But that would be just one more MAJOR bond to the character, who I've ALWAYS identified with anyways...it couldn't be better for me. If it happens, I think it will happen on Earth 2 perhaps, which would also give them more flexibility with the critics. Choosing Tim makes sense to me, he's always been rumored to be gay, and quite honestly, I've always thought of him as being closeted anyways! :) I don't know though...they've said "introducing" the character, so that doesn't seem to fit him.

I can't wait to find out though. In my opinion, this is something that is good for comics, since it provides more connectivity to potential young fans out there. And its a start toward fair representation in the DC Universe...after all, doesn't it just make sense that there has to be ONE major superhero out there that's gay???

Whoever that character is, you can bet they won't be in the military so it's not Captain Atom or anyone like that.

A new quote gives me pause as to whether or not it's an already introduced character, or one they have yet to introduce:

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2012/05/21/new...an-iconic-male/

So a major male character will reveal he is gay in June. Not sure if it's one that appeared already in the new 52 or not. Wally could be a possibility. My money is on Tim. I wouldn't be surprised if it was Barry though... he is single now...

Edit: Also, very nice words Grayson-ite. it is a shame that people take disagreements so personally. But, the way you use the word partner kind of gave your sexual orintation away. That and your birthday cake :P

(kidding about the awesome superhero cupcake cake)

HAHA! Yes Will, I suppose its not exactly THAT hard to figure out. I just didn't know if I had ever explicitly made the statement. Believe me, no matter how old you get, or how many times you say it, its NEVER easy to do...only easier than the last time.

And as far as my birthday cake goes, i can't trust your opinion...you're the same guy that things Ralph Dibny is on the "suspect list", because he wears purple!!! :lol Leave the gay-dar to me, pal!! :)

Hmmm....so its an "iconic" character. Well, that would certainly make either Robin or The Flash a possibility. Also, I have to say, the new Flash book has some gay sensibility to it anyways. They've already introduced Hartley back into the picture as the boyfriend of one of the guys on the CCPD. That would definitely make for an interesting turn of events, for sure.

Oy vey, Scott Snyder, in answer to people guessing that it's Batman, clarified that it IS someone who hasn't been introduced yet. Sheesh.

So who does that leave? Not much really... Dr. Fate? Hourman? Wildcat? Adam Strange? Now I'm just throwing out names.

I blame society for my views, stereotypes, and general behavior.

EDIT: Oops, I also forgot that I wanted to say that I'm glad you felt comfortable telling us even if it is hard. Hopefully one day it won't ever be difficult for people to share!

Well, I'm offended.

Just like I was offended that Marvel decided they had to have a black Nick Fury. I know that that's not exactly the same, but it's caused me an equal amount of outrage.

Or that, since they introduced Batwoman as a lesbian, clearly she had a past with Renee.

Just funking think up someone new. People do it all the time. If it's someone dear to people, then what's the point of them 'becoming' gay? If anything, it's worse.

Don't get me wrong, if it's a character whose personal life we've NEVER had an insight into, and then they announce they are gay, that's one thing.

But someone (Renee), who has shown heterosexual interest in a bloke, (Harvey - or did I dream that?), to suddenly be 'outed' is low and unoriginal and just marginally offensive.

I don't want to get into an argument about people who are secretly gay or live lies etc etc, I just think that some things should be left untouched. It's not about taste or prejudice, it's about storytelling, and this doesn't sound like it is.

You know the stupid thing? If Wally or Tim or 'x' is the outed guy, there's going to be more outrage and annoyance than anything else. Mostly because these characters are established and have a history. Why the hell do you want to play with that?!

And if it's a minor character who hasn't been seen or heard from since year dot, then you might as well create someone new. Winnick did it in GL (if I recall correctly), way back when, why can't he or whoever do it again?!

Thanks Grayson-ite! Believe me, I wish that things weren't the way they are now a days but there are so many sensibilities that can be rubbed the wrong way that it is actually kinda scary at times. I work in marketing and have seen how much just a little work can be turned into a freaking BIG deal that they make you change the whole message. Like Will said, I blame society and a rather narrow POV of so many.

As for the character, I don't really think they will go the route of the Robin. Mostly because they have said that the Batfamily and GL's history is basically the same. Then again, they may do it. I was thinking more along the lines of one of the other TT. Or maybe... Wally. It could be. Then again, we do have Jimmy Olsen too and heck, who's to say that it won't be Superboy? But he is a clone so I don't think that it would fly.

So many to choose from... You gotta admit, it will be a big seller once it comes out in June. :o

What's throwing me off is the "iconic" tag on it. Do they really mean iconic to everybody or just iconic to the comic audience? If its the former, this could be huge.

Has Jimmy Olsen appeared in DCNU yet?

I'm pretty sure I saw him in Superman #1 or 2.

Yes, he was in Action Comics for the first issue or two, for sure.

Unconfirmed but plausible....

True we've seen the alter ego since the reboot, but not the cape.

And another interesting article

Not sure how realistic it is, but they make a pretty convincing argument for my choice of Wally.

I really would hate that honestly. The greatest part of Wally West was we got to see him grow from a teenage kid to a loving husband and father. Taking away his family would really just rub me the wrong way.

I could see it being the Atom though.

I really understand where you are coming from. But as Will, and others have said before, THAT Wally West still exists. Those stories are still there, and your memories of that Wally (and mine too!) STILL exist. This would be a new Wally...a very DIFFERENT Wally, to be sure. And you'd get to see him grow all over again and develop as a NEW person all over again. I can see why that might not be appealing...I really can. For me, it would work, but to each his/her own, ya know! :)

I think its a moot point though, to be honest...I don't REALLY think it will be Wally. I just read another theory that its going to be Alan Scott in this month's Earth #2 issue. That's probably the most credible theory I've heard so far....we'll see though.

SO, not to derail the discussion, but I don't understand why Wally is scared on the "grown up and had a family" issue. Roy was deaged and lost his daughter. Clark was deaged and lost his wife. The Atom (Ray Palmer, is that the right name?) isn't married anymore. Why is Wally's family so sacred? I'd be very happy to have a deaged, unmarried, and even gay Wally rather than no Wally at all!

As for the possibility of Alan Scott being the character with a new sexual preference, it makes sense, but it doesn't really feel iconic, does it? I get that DC would try to hype it and all, but itwould feel like a bit of a let down.

Well for me personally, I never cared much for Roy or Ray and Superman hasn't been interesting since Geoff Johns wrote him and even then he was only semi interesting. To me, taking away Wally's family would be like throwing Dick back into the Robin outfit. That's just how I would personally feel.

There's better ways to bring Wally back then to make him a totally different character. You take away all his identity, you might as well just make a new character instead of piggy backing on the name of a successful one. They can still bring Wally back with his family and with a different costume identity. If any of you have been reading Flash, the character Turbine was originally Wally West, but DC wouldn't let Francis Manapal go through with it.

That would've been a great way to bring him, a man trapped inside of the speed force just looking for a way back to his universe and family.

It really seems like these things are cyclical for a number of reasons. Basically, even if they reintroduce Wally, deaged without a family, he'll eventually get back there!

Edit: typo fixed

I agree with that, Will. I do not agree with bringing him back deaged and gay though. Then he can never get back there! However, I think the best way to bring Wally back is as someone who is the one of the only people with knowledge of the universe that came before Flashpoint. Have him traveling through the speed force looking for his family in other dimensions. Sort of like the Booster Gold series, but without it being about time travel it's speed force travel. It could work. Could change his dynamic too because he could be messing things up indirectly and be seen as a villain to the DC heroes. It would differentiate him from Barry Allen in a great way.

Either way, these Alan Scott rumors seem to be, as most of you have said, the direction they're going to go in. I really enjoy Alan as a character and I'd welcome the change.

well, I could play devil's advocate and say "why not?" With the use of surrogates and other fertility treatments, it's possible. But of course, that may be too mature for comics today, though they do it on "Modern Family" without much of a fuss raised. Perhaps because the perceived audience is different?

But, I digress, I don't think Wally will come back any time soon. It's too much of a headache, and bringing him back as the only person who remembers the old universe is kind of DC saying "we're keeping a door open to go back there if we need to" OR is a major headache like Power Girl used to be!

Any thoughts on Alan Scott as the possible hero with a new sexual identity?

Well, before we close the door on the Wally aspect of the conversation, I just want to add my two cents. I really don't understand either why Wally is the sacred cow that can't be touched with change here. As I said before, his stories, as they were before, still exist, and can be read, and reread, for all of time. I just don't see a problem if he was to be brought back in a different, new and original way. Not just Wally with a boyfriend mind you, because that would be pandering. But, something more original than that, that makes sense within the story. It's really a matter of being able to divorce yourself from the past...what happened, pre-flashpoint, still exists....this is a new, and different world, and to enjoy it, you have to open yourself up to new possibilities I think. Of course, you can choose not to...that's everyone's perogative.

To answer Will's question, I guess I am pretty ambivalent about the choice of Alan Scott. As the person in this group who is probably most interested in, and most affected by, this whole 'coming out", I have to say that if it's Alan Scott, my reaction will be kind of a "Eh, so what". I never really liked Alan's character all that much, to be honest. And if it's him, it won't raise my likeability of his character too much either. But, I would definitely be picking the book up, to show DC my support for them making the decision. I really feel like that's not truly an "iconic" character though, and I'd be a little irritated with Didio (& Co.) for false advertising. But, whatever...it would still be a pretty important move, i think.

Please don't take this as me being accusatory of anything, other than my disagreeing with your logic.

Essentially, if I boil this statement down, it sounds like you're saying that you'd be fine with them bringing Wally back, and characterizing him as a villain. Just don't bring him back as gay. <_<

I'm fairly certain that's not what you're REALLY trying to say...but, it kind of sounds like it.

Not at all, but I could see how you would think this though. If they think he's a villain it doesn't mean he's a villain. Sort of like Hulk when he first was created. The government hunted him thinking he was bad, but they just didn't understand him. In Wally's mind, he's just a man running around in this strange place, hopping between dimensions trying to find his family, but in reality he's screwing somethings up without realizing it. They could even make a series where he goes between dimensions fixing his mistakes and maybe becoming a sort of protector of the speed force.

EDIT: To clarify a bit more, the reader would KNOW he's not a bad guy. The heroes would be the one not in the know as the reader face palms everytime they accuse Wally of being a bad guy.

As I said, I assumed that was what you meant, but wanted to clarify.

Well, I don't see anything wrong with your idea either, to be honest with you. I will say that I thought the wife and kids was a bit of an anchor around Wally that no one seemed to be able write very well. Not to say that it can't be done, but it WASN'T being done well in recent years. SO, although I wouldn't be opposed to having his family back, I also wouldn't have any problem with them not being a part of this world either. I just want Wally back, period. It doesn't matter to me how he would be different...I just would like my (almost) favorite character back...and if they made him gay, that would be a bonus for me, I guess. :)

I like my idea better :P It caters to both crowds. Those like me who want to see Wally come back with his growth intact and those who think his family was an anchor on him. He still has the family, but since they're missing he's not totally anchored by them.

Either way, honestly speaking, just getting Wally back would make me happy. I'll b*tch and moan for a few issues but then just accept the new Wally for what he is. :lol:

Hmmm. if it was Wally, and they kept old friendships intact, it would be cool to have him interact with Nightwing. Dick and Wally had always been best friends and I think it would really bring an interesting dynamic.

IF they were to keep the friendships that made the Titans so important as a "family" group. Which I don't think they will. Kinda sucks... :o

^^^

That's a good point, I forgot to make myself. Another problem is if they bring him back gay, not only do you get rid of his family, but it's hghly unlikely he will even have the same friends. They are kind of ignoring all the original TT relationships, so it'd be a good possibility that he'd come back as a totally different character but just with the same name.

Might as well just make a totally new character at that point and wait for the right oppurtunity to bring Wally back.