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Naruto Jiyuu > General Discussion > Battle System?


Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 24 2008, 01:18 PM
Do you guys think we should have more of a formulaic approach to calculating damage in RP battles, training, etc.?

Like have a seperate stat along with Chakra that determines the amount of strength of your attack based on how much chakra you have or another to determine the amount of stamina you have left?

Posted by: Kuroukami Yukio Jan 24 2008, 03:02 PM
No, I think the fact that this RP is not calculated is what makes it good.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 24 2008, 11:58 PM
Agreed w/ Yukio. The freeness makes it cool.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 25 2008, 12:01 AM
Freeness it is ^.^

Life, jiyuu, and the pursuit of freeness

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 25 2008, 02:09 AM
/double post

Then again, things will get pretty competitive with a battle system. Like the battle system on my Bleach RP demands strategy with six different stats that determine how you will do against opponents.

http://z6.invisionfree.com/Bleach_Jikoku/index.php?showtopic=2&st=0&#last

Free form RP'ing's just a little too disorganized for my tastes actually.

You could still have all the same text in our posts, dialect, style of attack (flips, kicks, etc.), but with a mathematic approach in addition to that.

I mean battles here are practically ones where the only way you can win is if the other opponent gives up.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 25 2008, 02:23 AM
Yeah, that's the cool part. It's based on rp-ing ability and not stat gaining.

Posted by: Kuroukami Yukio Jan 25 2008, 03:33 AM
I do kind of see where Mikyas is coming from
.
My suggestion would be to introduce a stat system very gradually. Even having said that, I still believe that the RP style and whatever should be up to the RPers discretion, but I still think there should something implemented to END A DAMN FIGHT. Like Admin/Mod intervention that says: NO YOU CAN'T DO THAT BECUZ IT'S IMPOSSIBLE, therefore you lose the fight. Even then, that aspect can be taken as leniently or as strictly as we'd like.

Just a thought.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 25 2008, 04:06 AM
Yeah, but if you have a mod or admin step in that's just sort of like... sophomoric for RP'ers. I mean people should be able to battle and end it without needing someone to jump in, wipe their noses, and tell them they can't do a certain thing and that they need to end the battle.

However, for the getting a battle system gradually, what I'd probably do is consider a battle system for Jiyuu, post it up. Have people vote on it, ask what needs to be revised or what would like to be seen, etc.

Once we agree on a simple system, I think everyone will be happy.

The RP itself will definitely be free form, as many shuriken throws as you want. Which I think we should tally by the way, along with kunai and etc. projectiles.

Posted by: FinalRagnarok Jan 25 2008, 02:36 PM
Not to mention in this RP chakra means next to nothing for most of the members apart from what abilities they use. If 2 people battle and one person basically outclasses them with their respective chakra amounts the member with less chakra is still going to RP it like they actually have a chance.

And I experienced this personally when it was a Mist vs. Leaf brawl and my 5k chakra rocking Genin was battling 2 mist genin whose chakras barely added up to 2000. Granted there were two of them but when I literally have twice as much chakra as both of them put together I don't think it's the least bit ridiculous for me to assume that they'll roll over dead for me while still putting up some semblance of a fight.

When you're in a situation like that where you're outclassed beyond belief, it's alright to put up a fight but if that person is really out to get you and it's not just a Jounin training his Genin, you have to assume that they're faster, smarter, stronger, and more experienced than you.

But the real flaws with having something this free-form is that when two people with similar chakra battle it always come down to both of them fighting on stubbornly and eventually ending up in a double knockout since no one wants to take a loss.

And DS and I experience that repeatedly when both of our genin end up fighting as we always do. Not once has their been an outcome other than a double knockout for both of our genin. So that's why to make the battles a little bit more structured we do need a stats system, all the while maintaining the integrity and spirit of the freeforming RP system that we love on Jiyuu.

Both ways of RP'ing can coexist, it's not like you can't have both. If you do make it more stats based it'll only be better for Jiyuu, and if that doesn't work we'll drop it.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 25 2008, 07:29 PM
They can't coexist, though. The stats would mean that someone stronger would win like every battle. Let's look at the battles from the real show:

Naruto* vs. Ebisu: Naruto was weaker but used the Sexy no Jutsu to win.

Kimimaro vs. Gaara*: Kimimaro was superior by far, but Gaara had an area ability, but Kimimaro was close range.

Sakura and Chiyoba* vs. Sasori: Cuz she was a med-nin, she didn't get pwnt.

And any fights in which both characters are nearly the same strength seem to end in double knockouts or quitting: Naruto vs. Sasuke (technically), Gai vs. Kakashi(never shown), Jiraiya, Oro, Tsunade.

This woudln't work with stats, so I think a guide to rping would be the beset option.

Posted by: Kuroukami Yukio Jan 25 2008, 07:29 PM
Going on what Mikyas said, I don't think that mods jumping in is necessarily taboo. The thing is that both players want to WIN and they will look to do it at any cost. The problem is without "referees" there is no way to ensure fairness. Referees outlay and enfore the rules and to have a proper fight, we need them.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 25 2008, 10:21 PM
QUOTE (Kuroukami Yukio @ Jan 25 2008, 07:29 PM)
Going on what Mikyas said, I don't think that mods jumping in is necessarily taboo. The thing is that both players want to WIN and they will look to do it at any cost. The problem is without "referees" there is no way to ensure fairness. Referees outlay and enfore the rules and to have a proper fight, we need them.

With a battle system you don't need a referee... you can't god mod with a battle system.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 25 2008, 11:43 PM
It is also more difficult to be creative. I'm more for guidelines than for a battle system.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 26 2008, 03:46 AM
QUOTE (Ds14 @ Jan 25 2008, 11:43 PM)
It is also more difficult to be creative. I'm more for guidelines than for a battle system.

As FR said. You can still be able to be creative while at the same time it being formulaic.

Hell you could even ask to manipulate the battle system for things like water conducting electricity, bunshins, bunshin henges, and ask a mod or admin if it's alright.

Point is for every attack, there's always a specific amount of damage dealt.

We can have stats for a bunch of different kinds of physical attacks.

Also we can have stats for dodging, defense/guard, etc..

I agree with FR, creativity and a system can coexist.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 26 2008, 04:17 AM
The thing is that once stats are introduced, the objective starts to switch slightly from rping to gaining the stats.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 26 2008, 04:47 AM
QUOTE (Ds14 @ Jan 26 2008, 04:17 AM)
The thing is that once stats are introduced, the objective starts to switch slightly from rping to gaining the stats.

That isn't always for the worse. Playing for the stats and RPing are the same, because depending on the situation, you would probably RP the same.

Here are some random stats I was thinking of.

Chakra (Basically experience)

Simple Attack (Consecutive Hits = 1)

Stamina (Post count that you can last at most before giving up)

HP (Specific amount of health that decreases as the opponent hits you)

For Jutsu Tech Charts: Attack Power, Defense Power, Evade Power

Dexterity (Basically a battle stat where if you RP with a bunshin or a bunshin henge, the opponents ability to dodge will be gone unless his dexterity is higher than yours.)

Dodge (Escaping an attack, only a certain amount of dodges per battle for all characters regardless of rank)

Guard (Takes half the damage of any physical attack, but the character can not retaliate in that post)

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 26 2008, 06:09 PM
But that's the thing, it doesn't work like that with Naruto. It's strategy. The Sound 5 battles are the best examples of this.

1. Jirobou vs. Chouji

Chouji was MUCH weaker and Jirobou could have very easily killed him in one hit if we went by attack power and stats alone. But because they were both tank characters and Chouji had that little butterfly move, he won the fight. In an rpg, a genin would not have that powerful of a technique, so a fight like this wouldn't even be possible.

2. Sakon/Ukon vs. Kiba

If you went by stats, there wouldn't even be a chance. The whole dog peeing in the eyes thing wouldn't fly in an rpg like this.

3. Most importantly, Neji vs. Kidoumaru.

Why is this most important in my opinion? Completely unorthodox fighting methods. Hiding in trees, shooting jyuuken through a string, doubling the Hakke, repeated use of Kaiten, a lot of things that are kind of made up on the fly.

I'm not gonna try to argue the rest of them but...

1. Chakra - IMO, this is the only important stat. It relies on the maturity of and trust in the members to rp correctly based on the strength difference. If a problem comes up and it's unintentional, a mod can be called or an OOC Message can be put at the top of the next post reminding the person of the chakra difference and to rp accordingly.

2. Consecutive Hits - I think someone like Haku, Lee, or Neji could get A LOT of consecutive hits on characters much stronger than themselves. This stat seems like it should just be rped.

3. Stamina - This can be a problem. I think it's the main problem with this rp's free form battle system. The only solution I can think of that can keep it as free form as it is now is a sort of Guidebook for intermediate members/beginners that describes Character Creation/Tech Chart Creation/RPing Well.

4. HP - Yikes, that would be bad. It eliminates the ever present idea of will power and eliminates story driven victories. For instance, one character's friend has just been beaten up by an NPC. Naturally, you'd expect a boost to pretty much all stats but chakra when they fight them. That's another reason I think chakra is the only important stat. It doesn't ever really change (transformations should change that, but there aren't really enough transformations in Naruto to worry about that.)

Meh, just a few more comments.

Dodge - I'll use Lee as an example. He could probably dodge almost any attack by a taijutsu user, but would likely be hurt by even an inexperienced Ninjutsu user's techniques.

Guard - Should be rp'ed.



Please, let me know about where you disagree w/ me or whatever. :-p this is an interesting debate.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 26 2008, 10:11 PM
QUOTE (Ds14 @ Jan 26 2008, 06:09 PM)
But that's the thing, it doesn't work like that with Naruto. It's strategy. The Sound 5 battles are the best examples of this.

1. Jirobou vs. Chouji

Chouji was MUCH weaker and Jirobou could have very easily killed him in one hit if we went by attack power and stats alone. But because they were both tank characters and Chouji had that little butterfly move, he won the fight. In an rpg, a genin would not have that powerful of a technique, so a fight like this wouldn't even be possible.

2. Sakon/Ukon vs. Kiba

If you went by stats, there wouldn't even be a chance. The whole dog peeing in the eyes thing wouldn't fly in an rpg like this.

3. Most importantly, Neji vs. Kidoumaru.

Why is this most important in my opinion? Completely unorthodox fighting methods. Hiding in trees, shooting jyuuken through a string, doubling the Hakke, repeated use of Kaiten, a lot of things that are kind of made up on the fly.

I'm not gonna try to argue the rest of them but...

1. Chakra - IMO, this is the only important stat. It relies on the maturity of and trust in the members to rp correctly based on the strength difference. If a problem comes up and it's unintentional, a mod can be called or an OOC Message can be put at the top of the next post reminding the person of the chakra difference and to rp accordingly.

2. Consecutive Hits - I think someone like Haku, Lee, or Neji could get A LOT of consecutive hits on characters much stronger than themselves. This stat seems like it should just be rped.

3. Stamina - This can be a problem. I think it's the main problem with this rp's free form battle system. The only solution I can think of that can keep it as free form as it is now is a sort of Guidebook for intermediate members/beginners that describes Character Creation/Tech Chart Creation/RPing Well.

4. HP - Yikes, that would be bad. It eliminates the ever present idea of will power and eliminates story driven victories. For instance, one character's friend has just been beaten up by an NPC. Naturally, you'd  expect a boost to pretty much all stats but chakra when they fight them. That's another reason I think chakra is the only important stat. It doesn't ever really change (transformations should change that, but there aren't really enough transformations in Naruto to worry about that.)

Meh, just a few more comments.

Dodge - I'll use Lee as an example. He could probably dodge almost any attack by a taijutsu user, but would likely be hurt by even an inexperienced Ninjutsu user's techniques.

Guard - Should be rp'ed.



Please, let me know about where you disagree w/ me or whatever. :-p this is an interesting debate.

The dog peeing in the eyes thing could act as a stat, keeping the enemy from landing attacks for a certain post count.

You can still make things up, but at the same time have a stat count for the specific actions you make.

Eg. If you are hiding in a tree, that may count as a dodge post, while at the same time allowing you to prepare an attack that requires you to charge up before your next post, or possibly plan something elaborate with ninja wire.

If a character wants to have some kind of elaborate scheme to trap the opponent, they can always confront a mod or admin to check if it's okay to manipulate the battle system for it.

It might be fun to sort of go nuts and not precisely calculate the toll that the battle is doing on your character's body, but it keeps from having a fair and honest battle.

Also,

Chakra can be a factor determining the other stats with some kind of formulaic concept, as well as a benchmark level for jutsu like it currently is.

((eg. Chakra/3 + (Certain number based off rank))

Consecutive Hits are both RP'd and done formulaicly... I don't know how many times I have to say this, but you can RP consecutive hits, while at the same time indicate the damage done mathematically afterwards. You can still RP your character doing attacks.

Stamina is simply a limit to the amount of times you can post in a battle. It should not be a problem. If the character runs out of stamina, he is finished indefinitely. His next post will be him fainting.

There just has to be something like HP here... none of the battles end up working out where there isn't an exact way to calculate how much damage is done, as well as whose stamina should go out first. It is significantly less efficient to determine who wins a battle with the current system we use. Sure will power and story driven victories are not as important as skill levels. If you want to give your character more determination, have him train more often than the average shinobi.

Unless they have a specific jutsu that allows this, someone's dodge count should not be as high as Lee's was.

Of course guards are rp'ed... They are rp'ed, while at the same time should take a specific amount of toll on the opponent's body, preferably half, while at the same time, keeping them from god modding and performing a jutsu on top of their guard, since otherwise it would just be:

Guard, Jutsu, Opponent Guard, Opponent Jutsu, Guard, Attack, etc.

The battle would just last too long if people could guard as much as they wanted.

I have no idea why you think the RPing will go away if you add in a battle system.

It's the same exact thing, only there are certain limits you have to put on each poster. However, it's those very limits that will allow battles to be more fair and end more reasonably.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 28 2008, 03:24 AM
Meh, the thing that's kept my interest in this RP for so long is actually the battle system. Nothing to keep track of other than story and no real bounds on what you can do other than common sense and the opinions of other members.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 28 2008, 03:50 PM
Well we could always stick to the original system. However, there is absolutely no way we can have decent battles...

I mean, how do you determine who wins? How do you limit the overall post count without forcing someone to give up if they run out of posts?

It's very awkward to end a battle with someone letting their opponent win.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 28 2008, 11:56 PM
I always thought of it as like, if you rp them into a corner so that they can't win unless they godmod, then you win. But yeah, I see your point.

Posted by: Uchiha Mikyas Jan 29 2008, 12:16 AM
How about for big, official battles such as Chuunin exams, we just have a few people from the moderating team decide what attacks should be landed.

Like for example, a genin would post his attack, a few mods or admins will decide whether or not the opponent should be able to dodge or guard, then they PM or contact the opponent to give them the permission to defend and retaliate.

Posted by: Ds14 Jan 29 2008, 12:18 AM
That sounds good. And we have a good Mod to Member ratio, so that should work.

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