COP 2-5 lessons learned, collection of info

http://s9.invisionfree.com/HighQuality/ind...p?showtopic=273

http://s9.invisionfree.com/HighQuality/ind...topic=326&st=15

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Depending on the PT configuration, yellow liquids can be much more of a hinderance than a help. The first few attempts the EPP did this BC, we kept on using yellow liquids, consequently we kept on getting smashed and/or running out of time.

One of the great secrets is this:
The mammlets only do Transmogrification (All physical attacks heal it for ~30 seconds) in H2H form!

When we didn't rely on yellow liquids, and when people respected Transmogrification, the battle became much easier.


Incidentally, BST charm-bind-kiting works really well. For the EPP, Valyana and I took and kept 2 mammlets occupied while the rest of the PT engaged the 3rd one. It took a bit, but they fell like clockwork. When we didn't use yellow liquids, and when people's pets respected Transmogrification, the battle was almost trivial.

At no time during our last encounter did I feel threaten.

On the topic of BST Charm Kiting, I'm currently working on pushing my BSt to 40 for the 2-5 fight. Hopefully I can succesfully occupy one of the mammets by myself which would leave the party to do something with the other two.

The topic I want to discuss on BST Charm Kiting (BCK from now on <.<;;; =P) is what is a better sub in this fight? WAR? WHM? NIN? BRD ... dunno, just thought this one up (edited into post)

I don't have much experience in the actual fight but for BCK I can see some upsides and some downsides for each job sub choice.

Note: The following points given are only for the actual kiting, not the fight thereafter

Warrior Sub

Pros:
• Provoke to hold hate with while others debuff mob before the initial kiting begins, and to make sure it stays on you throughout the kite
• DEF+ Job Trait ... but then again with kiting you don't plan on getting hit too much do you?
  Cons:
• Raw damage being dealt, only way to heal self would be with hi-potions and no way to use shadows to 'evade' attacks

White Mage Sub

Pros:
• Remove debuffs, toss in some necessary cures during the kite
  Cons:
• Have to stop to cast Cures, -na spells, etc. But, you have to stop a bit too with potions/utsusemi also, utsusemi being highest "use" potion being lowest"
• Lower DEF/Dmg taking "geared" statistics

Ninja Sub

Pros:
• Shadows, very helpful
• Can always try to cast some elemental ninjutsu (:ichi ones suck tho .. ._.) to hold hate/do DMG/weaknesses
  Cons:
• Highly magic "based" subjob choice like White Mage, so you have to stop to use the SJ to its full advantages.

Bard Sub (eh)

Pros:
• Paeon II, some minor HP Regen while kiting the mob
• Lullaby. Can sleep the mob and wait for it to reawake while you get Paeon II back up if it goes down, or rest a little bit. Sleep should give you enough hate stacked a few times onto the mob after it awakes resleep .. etc
  Cons:
• Only one song on yourself/mob (no weakness songs on the mob alongside Lullaby)
• No Mary's Horn to buff the duration of Lullaby
• The actual Duration of Lullaby may not be long enough to have the timer cool down enough to make it worthwhile

Please offer any comments you have as to a "most optimal" sub to BST in this fight vs the 3x Mammet-19 Epsilons. I would like to be able to offer the most that I can to my party in kiting capabilities and these are the 4 subs I figure would be best (well, first 3 are best, 4th is just something that popped into my head)

Thank you for reading/responding.

*edit*Edited in the /BRD sub pros/cons

This post has been edited by Aule on Jun 10 2005, 05:40 PM

BRD sub isn't worth considering; the Mammets don't sleep. If they did, you wouldn't have to kite them. ^^

If you have experience kiting with Utsusemi, NIN is definitely the way to go. Having more shadows, and having them always block attacks, is a distinct advantage over the WHM sub. You don't need to worry about holding hate; repeated Charm-binding builds up a lot of hate on you, so that it was difficult for Alesander to get it off me at the end (good thing I had Utsusemi). Not as much as Provoke, I imagine, but a significant amount. You might practice kiting an EP goblin or something to get the hang of blink-kiting; I had some trouble recasting without getting interrupted, and more practice might have helped.

Put your healer in the middle of the arena so they can heal the kiters if necessary, and possibly silence mammets in Staff mode.

If you have a PLD, you might also consider the non-kiting strategy for 2-5; it sounds easier to me, though we never tried it.

PLD runs in and gets aggro but does NOT provoke, flash, or do anything to any of the mammets that would get him on their hate lists. He is free to cure and buff himself, he just can't do anything to the mobs. A WHM helps him stay alive; because the PLD has no hate, the WHM gets no hate for healing him. Meanwhile, the other 4 members of the party pull away one mammet at a time and kill it (so you'll want another tank and healer).

Hmm

My NIN is only at 18, would htat be a disadvantage to have it 2 levels lower than the cap in the arena? I can try to get it to 20 ... but I'm having a hard enough time getting my BST to 40 by then^^;; I didn't see NIN get any special job traits or abilities at lvl 20 or much special ninjutsu that seemed to help (I saw Dokumori (19) and that's it...blind is nice .. dunno tho)

Thanks for the reply =)

*edit* Getting to 20 shouldn't be too bad now, we've got plenty of time for the run now that we've got a set time about 2 weeks ahead^^ Hopefully I'll be free ... gotta look at my stack of weekend schedules

This post has been edited by Aule on Jun 11 2005, 01:54 PM

I think these are all the special attacks that the different forms have:

All Mammet forms: Tremorous Tread (AoE minor damage and stun).

Sword: Velocious Blade (5x attack, major damage), Sonic Blade (single target high damage), Scission Thrust (forward low damage)

Staff: Psychomancy (AoE MP drain!!), Mind Wall (magic attacks), all tier 1 -ga nukes.

Polearm: Percussive Foin (forward medium damage), Microquake (single target high damage), Gravity Wheel (AoE high damage).

Hand: Transmogrification (absorb physical attacks).

Do *NOT* lock the mammet you're fighting in Hand form with Yellow Liquid; it's the only form that uses Transmogrification, so while it's less dangerous than the other forms, it also dies much more slowly.

From http://s9.invisionfree.com/HighQuality/ind...topic=897&st=15

the 3 tanks, 3 healer tactic would probably be optimal for this fight.

Various strategies:

• Double Kite: Two people occupy one Mammet each while the rest of the party fights one. NIN can just about solo a mammet. BST can kite one with jugs and charm-bind. SMN can kite one using marathon soloing tactics. RDM/NIN can kite with Bind and Gravity. Other jobs can also kite, but will need more healing. For this strategy, have the party's healer stand in the center of the arena so they can heal kiters if necessary; but kiters should try to heal themselves with potions/bloody bolts as much as possible to avoid losing hate to the healer, especially if they aren't building hate on it. If you don't have enough kiters, consider:
  
• Super Paladin/Super Kite: One player runs in and get sight aggro but does nothing aggressive (do nothing that would turn the mob red). The rest of the party pulls away one at a time and kills it. The aggroer tries to stay alive with two Mammets beating on them, with the help of a dedicated healer. The aggroer can either stand and take the hits (if they're PLD) or kite the Mammets around (pretty much any other job). The kiting version is a good role for a THF; a pair of strider boots would help a lot, of course.
  This strategy WILL NOT WORK with a SMN in the party, at least not if they want to use their avatars. For some reason, a SMN releasing an avatar anywhere on the battlefield will pull the Mammets off the aggroer. Also, resting for MP will pull them off the aggroer if they're close enough to see it.
  
• Duo: Pair off and duo each of the Mammets. This is most commonly done with 3 NIN and 3 healers, but other combinations might work. The healer doesn't need to be WHM; a NIN fighting a Mammet doesn't need much healing, so a healer that can also do damage is actually preferable. This strategy is probably the easiest if you have the NIN for it. I've heard that using a WAR/NIN in place of one of the NIN works, too; they'll need more healing, but can also take down their Mammet faster and help the others.
  I wonder how a DRG/WHM duo would do against a Mammet, or an RDM/NIN duo.
  
• SMN party: I think 6 SMN can blow away the mammets in a single round of Astral Flow. A variant of this strategy that I've heard works well is 4 SMN PLD WHM. 4 Astral Flow isn't enough to kill the Mammets in one blast, but the PLD and WHM can hold them for a minute until Blood Pact is ready again. Don't release your avatars after the blood pacts; let the Mammets kill them.

Try to lock your Mammet in Hand if you're kiting it, Staff if your melees don't need MP and you can keep it Silenced, or Poleaxe otherwise.

This post has been edited by Valyana on Nov 6 2005, 11:26 PM

Observations re. Mammet battle

General notes:
Keep the Mammlets silenced and debuffed (paralyze, slow, dia, blind)
Do not use physical damage against the HtH form Mammlet when its Transmogrify ability is active (lasts 30 sec). It may be possible to dispel this.
Use Yellow liquids to take a break after a bad form (like the sword form)
Use Hi-potions to survive bad forms (unsilenced staff form, sword form) and to help keep aggro off of the healers

Two strong verified types of teams for the battle.

A) 3 x SMN and PLD

For this team we have 3 or more SMN a PLD and two other players. The sequence of events is as follows:

1) Buffs

Everyone reraise
PLD Shell II/Protect II party
SMN Garuda Aerial armor
PLD take tank food
Rest to full and ensure Blood pact timer has recycled
1 SMN take Poison potion, all other pt member use Au Laits (+ Yagudo Drinks if caster)
SMN summon pets just before the pull

2) Pulling

The main party is close to the BC entry/exit
PLD provoke pulls the mammets within range of the SMN pet engagement range

3) 1st Astral Flow

PLD use hi-potions to stay alive
No one take aggro from the PLD during the preparation for the 1st Astral Flow! No healing the PLD or attacking or casting against the Mammlets.
SMN use 1st Astral flow and keep pets out, use Hi-ethers as needed to maintain mana

4) Invulnerable

Just prior to the last pet dying (or the pets losing aggro), the PLD will cure the SMN with poison damage.
When the pets lose aggro, the PLD will now Invulnerable.
PLD will use Hi-potions to stay alive
SMN use Hi-ethers to restore mana in preparation for 2nd Astral flow

5) 2nd Astral Flow

SMN use 2nd Astral flow (this should kill all 3 mammets)
If a Mammlet survives, SMN keep pets out
SMN take Hi-ethers as needed to prep for 3rd Astral flow
PLD use Hi-potions to stay alive
Use 3rd Astral flow
If a Mammlet survives call SE, it is obviously a 1337 HaXor11!! Mammlet and needs to have its account suspended.


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Endurance Party

The endurance party will need a large supply of Hi-potions and Hi-Ethers to ensure success, and can benefit significantly from at least 1 yellow liquid per tank.

For this team we have 1 main tank (WAR, PLD, NIN), 2 healers (SMN, BLM, WHM, RDM), and 2 distracters (NIN, WAR, PLD, BST). and 1 damage dealer.

Note that WAR tanks will need to be on defender.


The main party consists of:
Main tank
Damage Dealer
1 Healer

The distracter party consists of:
2 Distracters
1 Healer

1) Buffs
Everyone reraise
Everyone take Food (recommend Sole Sushi for Nin and non-magic DD, Defense Food for other tanks, Distracters)
Casters use Yagudo Drinks
Everyone use Au Laits

2) Pulling
Main party fight by stairs/steps out of initial Mammlet aggro range

Distracter party's healer is in the middle of the arena to provide support to all parties
Tank distracters pull their Mammlets to the far right and left of the BC, BST charm bind kiters select a common direction (ex. clockwise) and both agree to kite in same direction after the initial pets death.

3) Order of battle
The objective of the party as a whole is for the main party to kill their Mammlet before either of the two distracters die, and then to focus their attention on the remaining Mammlet that is causing the most trouble.

Notes for Main Party
WAR tanks should use Defender as needed (esp. against sword form)
The effectiveness of NIN tanks is increased tremendously by Haste, and also by aggressive use of Elemental Ninjitsu and Juji Shuriken (both do strong damage and limit the TP the Mammlet gets from your hits)

Notes for Distracter Party
Healer should try to be in position that allows them to assist either distracter rapidly.
WAR tanks should use Defender as needed (esp. against sword form)
The effectiveness of NIN tanks is increased tremendously by Haste, and also by aggressive use of Elemental Ninjitsu and Juji Shuriken (both do strong damage and limit the TP the Mammlet gets from your hits)
BST kiters benefit significantly from having charisma boost items to increase the chance of charm bind sticking
BST kiters need to pay attention to their radar and be alert for "random" movement by their Mammlet to avoid being cut off by their irregular movement patterns.

4) Death and reraise

If it looks like you are going to die, try to die outside the initial aggro range for the Mammlets. It is known that the area from the steps to the BC entry are safe places to die in preparation for a reraise.

Superkite PTs!!!

Some notes about the SMN party:

I don't think 3 SMN is enough. You need 4 SMN, or 3 SMN and 1 BLM; each Astral Flow does a bit over 500 damage, and the Mammets each have a little under 4000 HP.

Having the PLD cure one of the others only works with a BLM. With no BLM, the PLD should just build hate on all 3 mammets normally. Also, I don't think the poison potion makes any difference; I don't think a Cure needs to actually heal any damage for it to add the healer to the hate list.