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Title: Everyone must read this!


Golden arm42 - December 6, 2008 09:20 PM (GMT)
As I'm sure most of you already know, we had two clan wars today: with The Runescape Rebels and with Odyssey. I'd like to share my thoughts from these two wars. Anyone and everyone is welcome to share their opinions, too.

War with The Runescape Rebels

This war was the one that was supposed to occur. We did a great job pulling (25 is something to be extremely proud of; great job on that and thanks to everyone who came) and getting there (a few last minute rushers in, but I appreciate everyone coming early who did). Obviously, we had them outnumbered bad: when you've got a pull lead of 25-7, you shouldn't be losing one person. Good job; we didn't lose a person. I even got a kill. :guns king

However, it would have been impossible to lose, and in a war that we're guaranteed to win, it's an opportunity to do the little things right, the little things that makes a clan better. I was very disappinted in how people respond to commands: it took literally 2-3 minutes to get a DD together, and even as the fight was beginning, there were people running around wildly. Most people did their job, but when someone issues a command, you MUST do it. If we need a DD on Lamb, everyone MUST DD on Lamb. If we need to fall in on Lamb, you MUST fall in on Lamb. It's as simple as that. Our organization needs to change, and if it means we have an hour-long clan wars practice doing nothing practicing falling in and DDs, that's what we'll do, because right now, we're not going to win any wars against good clans (see below). :angry: :angry:

War with Odyssey

Yes, we were outleveled. Yes, they broke bounds. But what lost us the war against Odyssey was our organization, pure and simple. No one was piling, we had a few snipers but most of the time those turned into 1-on-1s (a big no-no) and no one was listening to commands (see above). By the way, when I say no one, I don't mean no one: I mean an appropriate amount. Some people were doing their jobs, and that's great. Anyway, our organization was pathetic, and that, more than anything else, lost us the war. Again, you need to listen to the right people: in wars, our hierarchy is simple: Leaders (Lamb then me), Warlords, and then the highest level members (I may consider making a new group: vice warlord, who would command after warlords are down: please share your thoughts). When no one listens, the system breaks down, and when the system breaks down, we end up getting beat from 19-15 to 0-13. Not good.

What We Need to Do

There are some pretty basic, yet important, things we need to, and are going to, do.

1. Everyone must listen to orders. A DD or fall in order cannot take 3 minutes to achieve. It's easy to say this, but we're going to start handing down penalties if people don't pay attention, because this needs to start happening.

2. The inventory. I didn't know whether I should laugh or cry when I saw one of our members (not going to name names) wearing full frog. Frog gives no bonuses. Frog does nothing to help. You may as well go buck naked :o for all the help frog will give you. From now on, everyone NEEDS to bring full rune if they're meleeing. If you don't have full rune and you're planning to melee, you may find yourself unable to participate.

3. Not go on a rollercoaster. I hate rollercoasters in real life, and I hate rollercoster-actions in game. We go from "This is a pathetic war; what a waste of time" to "Our org was terrible, we got owned". We need to learn from everything we do, or we don't move forward! That means stop getting pissed off when we cream a noob clan because obviously we're not good enough to hang with the big boys. If you feel like saying something like "This is a pathetic war", say it outloud in real life, because it does nothing to help by saying it ingame.

If anyone has questions and you truly don't know what you're doing wrong, please feel free to ask me. I'm not mad at any member here, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way. I just feel that to fulfill as good of a promise as we have (I know no other low-level clan in the game that pulls 25) we need to get better. Simple as that.

starwolf_ftw - December 6, 2008 09:37 PM (GMT)
Very well said. I do have a few things to say....

Yes, our organization was bad, I agree with you on that. I have a solution that might work. How about having multiple clan wars practices in the week? Sometimes, clan members can't make the one time a week we have a practice, I am on of those sad few :( because I have work on Friday nights. If we could have a practice on Mondays and Wednesdays with the original Fridays, I think that could help us all out! ;)

The outleveling was a factor, but we have won situations like this before. We were outleveled against Lethality (sorry for spelling) and we still managed to win with our superior numbers. We can't take this loss to hard, we can do better! :)

The piling was another factor I wasn't too fond of. I understand it is the leader's job to say who to pile, but it's rather hard to find someone to pile at the start of a war when there are 10-15 people standing on the same spot. Also, piling can get hard when people tank and hug walls when you are trying to pile. Just clicking on them to attack them is a challenge, plus with people runing everywhere, you might misclick the wrong person. I myself have misclicked Golden today at least 3 times... <_< Maybe it's only hard for me, but can we try to find a solution to this? :huh:

Overall, good day today against the Runescape Rebels, wish it could of been our way against Odessey. I hope to see you all train hard for the upcoming wars!


Golden arm42 - December 6, 2008 09:42 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (starwolf_ftw @ Dec 6 2008, 09:37 PM)
Very well said. I do have a few things to say....

Yes, our organization was bad, I agree with you on that. I have a solution that might work. How about having multiple clan wars practices in the week? Sometimes, clan members can't make the one time a week we have a practice, I am on of those sad few :( because I have work on Friday nights. If we could have a practice on Mondays and Wednesdays with the original Fridays, I think that could help us all out! ;)

The outleveling was a factor, but we have won situations like this before. We were outleveled against Lethality (sorry for spelling) and we still managed to win with our superior numbers. We can't take this loss to hard, we can do better! :)

The piling was another factor I wasn't too fond of. I understand it is the leader's job to say who to pile, but it's rather hard to find someone to pile at the start of a war when there are 10-15 people standing on the same spot. Also, piling can get hard when people tank and hug walls when you are trying to pile. Just clicking on them to attack them is a challenge, plus with people runing everywhere, you might misclick the wrong person. I myself have misclicked Golden today at least 3 times... <_< Maybe it's only hard for me, but can we try to find a solution to this? :huh:

Overall, good day today against the Runescape Rebels, wish it could of been our way against Odessey. I hope to see you all train hard for the upcoming wars!

QUOTE
Very well said. I do have a few things to say....


:D

QUOTE
How about having multiple clan wars practices in the week? Sometimes, clan members can't make the one time a week we have a practice, I am on of those sad few  because I have work on Friday nights. If we could have a practice on Mondays and Wednesdays with the original Fridays, I think that could help us all out! 


I'm not sure how happy people would be with three practices, plus a war, each week. I think that you're right though: it would be a good idea to, at least in the short term, add in some other days for practice, at least until we get better.

QUOTE
The outleveling was a factor, but we have won situations like this before. We were outleveled against Lethality (sorry for spelling) and we still managed to win with our superior numbers. We can't take this loss to hard, we can do better.


Good point: when we all do our jobs, good things happen.

QUOTE
The piling was another factor I wasn't too fond of. I understand it is the leader's job to say who to pile, but it's rather hard to find someone to pile at the start of a war when there are 10-15 people standing on the same spot


True. That's why we've all got to get to the front and dd or fall in FAST, so everyone has time to see who they're attacking. When we're finally getting into position with 10 seconds left to the battle, that's not good.

Thanks for the comments, Star.

K Arthur90 - December 6, 2008 09:46 PM (GMT)
I agree with starwolf on the mis-clicking thing. I'm a low level therefore I must target my enemies through right clicking. Idk, but I think that if we all wear the same team cape, the attack options dissapear or they go down to the list. But a few of us just wore anything they wanted and I kept mis-targeting them.

Also, i've been on one war and two trainings on AL for now, and I must say organization is what lacked today. Ppl wouldn't hear callings, pilings and orders. The organization was very much different from the last war. We managed dd's and fall ins in about 30 secs. Golden's right, we took 2 mins to stand on one place. Not even a simple "Ready Steady Go" countdown for the emote was followed.

But I disagree on three trains a week. I do other things than training, like skilling, slaying and, ummmm.... real life? I say we should stick to one train a week, but prolly make each train's time different. Like have a war one sat, then wed, then next sat.

starwolf_ftw - December 6, 2008 09:48 PM (GMT)
QUOTE
I'm not sure how happy people would be with three practices, plus a war, each week. I think that you're right though: it would be a good idea to, at least in the short term, add in some other days for practice, at least until we get better.




Well...how about we don't make them mandatory, and only have each person go to 1 or 2 a week. I mean, it can't be too hard to just go to one if it's a very varied schedule. :blink:

Golden arm42 - December 6, 2008 09:53 PM (GMT)
We could also do this: Friday is mandatory if you're on, and the others are optional. Better optional than nothing.

If it were to make things easier for you all, we'll start enforcing team 15-capes. Opinion on this? Necessary or not?

colombus32 - December 6, 2008 09:55 PM (GMT)
The main thing is finding people to call. When the leaders call, everyone needs to spam that name and that name only until that person is dead. There were too many occasions when I couldn't figure out who to attack because no one was calling names. Leaders call who to attack but once that is done, everyone needs to spam that name so we know who to take out.

All the major clans do this, when I was in Awaken it was something that won wars for us, when I stood by VR when it first started, they could take on much higher levels and take them out because of their organisation.

Also, before the guy we're piling dies, someone needs to call out who the next person is, so we're not aimlessly searching for the next target. It's easier to switch beforehand than to decide after.

Spamming. I know it's hard when they're going around walls but I think it needs to be done.

I dunno, I know I'm just the new guy, but I've been in and around good clans. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or tell anyone how to do their jobs.

Golden arm42 - December 6, 2008 09:57 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (colombus32 @ Dec 6 2008, 09:55 PM)
The main thing is finding people to call. When the leaders call, everyone needs to spam that name and that name only until that person is dead. There were too many occasions when I couldn't figure out who to attack because no one was calling names. Leaders call who to attack but once that is done, everyone needs to spam that name so we know who to take out.

All the major clans do this, when I was in Awaken it was something that won wars for us, when I stood by VR when it first started, they could take on much higher levels and take them out because of their organisation.

Also, before the guy we're piling dies, someone needs to call out who the next person is, so we're not aimlessly searching for the next target. It's easier to switch beforehand than to decide after.

Spamming. I know it's hard when they're going around walls but I think it needs to be done.

I dunno, I know I'm just the new guy, but I've been in and around good clans. I'm not trying to be a jerk, or tell anyone how to do their jobs.

No problem at all. In fact, I (and I hope everyone else) will feel more highly of you if you state your thoughts in a coherent manner as opposed to just being timid and submissive. I'd like to work on first things first, but you're absolutely right that we need to improve our spams. Spamming and binding (other than Magik and a few others) were also lacking today, but I'm not gonna go into that now.

Kerkennah - December 6, 2008 10:00 PM (GMT)
I wasn't there because i had to get a haircut. Anyways I don't see it hard for us to become more organised, we just have to get some people to understand what some things mean, then they can quickly do it. I agree spamming can be worked on and maybe tanking as well. I have a war guide that I will post soon, just have to fix some of the pictures.

Golden arm42 - December 6, 2008 10:03 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (Kerkennah @ Dec 6 2008, 10:00 PM)
I wasn't there because i had to get a haircut. Anyways I don't see it hard for us to become more organised, we just have to get some people to understand what some things mean, then they can quickly do it. I agree spamming can be worked on and maybe tanking as well. I have a war guide that I will post soon, just have to fix some of the pictures.

I think that's an issue, too, but I think the bigger problem is that people disregard things. People know how to DD, and do after a while, but they simply won't do it right away. That's the problem. <_<

K Arthur90 - December 6, 2008 10:04 PM (GMT)
Also, reading Warring 101 helps a lot to know basic warring strategies and vocabs.

zoro894 - December 6, 2008 10:27 PM (GMT)
aw... i missed these wars :(

starwolf_ftw - December 6, 2008 10:34 PM (GMT)
QUOTE (zoro894 @ Dec 6 2008, 05:27 PM)
aw... i missed these wars :(

Overall, it was fun. I'm sad you missed it, but there will be others!~

zoro894 - December 6, 2008 10:35 PM (GMT)
lol its not a big deal anyway :P

K Arthur90 - December 6, 2008 11:13 PM (GMT)
"There's no sense crying over every mistake."
Let's just train and win the next war. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.

craiglock1 - December 6, 2008 11:37 PM (GMT)
doh i missed it grrr just to go buy a track suit but ah well lol ill atend next war ill tell parents im ill or something lol

Redeyes2496 - December 7, 2008 12:30 AM (GMT)
ugh, things went bad :( sorry I couldn't show up, I had a lot of plans going on. If it's organizational problems and not listening to the leaders, that must be fixed. Straight to the point: Listen to the leaders, it's not too hard? :huh:

dunno ranger - December 7, 2008 12:51 AM (GMT)
Aww I missed them, you should schedule another war or two tonight and tomorow though! :D

squeeki - December 7, 2008 01:14 AM (GMT)
Wow seems like you guys did good. But Goldy is right we need organization. If your really dedicated to this clan dont wait for the clan practices go by your self and practice hugging/tanking. Take some friends or clan mates and practice on piles leader calls whatever. Dont wait for the day of the war to go over what you need to do. Just like real life sports you practice so when it comes down to the game everything becomes automatic for you and you wont feel lost. If any one needs any help with this topic I will be happy to give my aid.

Wolfclaw104 - December 7, 2008 02:06 AM (GMT)
I agree with Golden. We wouldn't follow the leaders. It is like in a real war that if you have no commands then you are like a sitting duck. I was wasn't very happy today when I didn't follow lamb. I am a low level but I still know what is going around me. Also I know some members (including me) that would just stand around while others got creamed. Also binds no one binded in the whole war...the clan we fought did have higher people ( the oddessy). Also why go for the low levels at the beggining? They're low like me so they can't do anything..while all the other people had full hp and creamed us because while we went for the lows they attacked us while we were attacking. I disagree with vice warlords because not that much chance that the leaders and the warlords will die and by that time we will have already lost.

These were my thoughts

-Wolf

rsw armoury - December 7, 2008 02:25 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (K Arthur90 @ Dec 6 2008, 06:13 PM)
"There's no sense crying over every mistake."
Let's just train and win the next war. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.

We just keep on trying 'til we run out of cake

Brand! - December 7, 2008 03:15 AM (GMT)
Alright, I don't know if i have a saying in this, I probably don't but, We should have a war training, W 141. Who's ever leading says..........................AL Brand, And you attack brand. No one else. Once he's dead, AL bobby, so on and so on. That's how the clan before did it, The war's i was in, We didn't lose.

starwolf_ftw - December 7, 2008 04:57 AM (GMT)
QUOTE (rsw armoury @ Dec 6 2008, 09:25 PM)
QUOTE (K Arthur90 @ Dec 6 2008, 06:13 PM)
"There's no sense crying over every mistake."
Let's just train and win the next war. And the next. And the next. And the next. And the next.

We just keep on trying 'til we run out of cake

Nice portal quote

Good feedback overall.

Chuffa - December 7, 2008 10:01 AM (GMT)
If people don't take notice in wars that's going to cost us. We need a way of making people listen, because everyone going into 1 on 1's in a no no.

Organisation is key, do people want to win or not?

3monightmar3 - December 7, 2008 11:35 AM (GMT)
ok, ill just summarise this. the problems were:
-spamming
-piling
-binding
-general organisation

the good points were:
-great pull
-tanking

I myself thought the biggest problem was the spamming-there were a number of times when i came out of a tanking effort and was unable to find any1 2 attack...that should not be the case when there are 13 opponents in the immediate vicinity! NOBODY was calling the piles for a lot of the OD war and when sum1 did ppls ignored it...this has to improve, which, in time, it will. :)

buzzsaw100 - December 7, 2008 06:37 PM (GMT)
As for the suggestion about multiple clan wars practices, we should really only have1 practice per week, but instead of having every practice on Fridays at the same time, rotate the days (and possibly times) of the once weekly practice so that its not allways the same people that are missing out. As for the wars, they seem to be a good time for everyone, seeing that we can get a very good pull.

damon - December 7, 2008 06:37 PM (GMT)
sorry but alot of you guys are missing stuff.. I read every post and some of you guys have skewed ideas on what happened at the war. The problem wasnt calling piles, because i knew who to attack all along, the problem was finding them. the causes of this was because most of the time, the pile was wiz, and he was out of bounds, and personally i couldnt find him if he was out of bounds. wolf, we attack the lower levels first because they are easy k0s. if we pile effectivly, we can take out 3 lower levels at the time it would take us to kill 1 higher level. Another thing i think we need to address was the sniping issue. with 20 people there at the war we should have had at least a 3-4 man snipe team. having me and kevin alone snipe was no where near good enough for the simple fact, me and kevin couldnt keep up with each other, and i find myself the ONLY person attacking phenix550, thier binder. I was shocked at the fact that people were running right by their binder in full robes and doing nothing about it... I had to practically scream to attack him, and just because i said attack him didnt mean he should become a pile. When you attack a binder, you attack him until he puts on his armor, then you head back to main pile... or even better since we are an inexperienced clan.. hit him 2 times then go back to pile. And yes there was little binding on our side, but i saw Magik binding at times so dont say there was NO binding.. but OD was owning our binders i can imagine just without seeing it first hand. I know because when i was sniping/ ranging their binders, i was getting drilled by level 122 anti sniper.. and i had on rune helm d hide body and rune legs.. a binder in full robes would get wasted, so you have to give credit to OD for our lack of binding. sad to say, it was my job as a sniper to help the binders from getting piled, but as said before i was getting piled myself, which is why we need more snipers.. and binders.. we need to set up teams sort of like IF, bind squad and snipe squad. Snipers should have high attack and range and binders should have high def and mage.

Golden arm42 - December 7, 2008 06:49 PM (GMT)
Good idea, Damon. From now on, you and Kevin will, before the battle, pick a team of snipers (not too many, please, or the main pile will suffer). The snipers can set you or Kevin as caller, and follow your orders directly. Everyone else will follow me or Lamb or Fivey on the main pile.

We can also set up a binders squad. Kevin (since he's a sniper) and maybe someone else can bind for the sniper team, and some others (Tech, Lamb, and one or two more people) could bind for the main pile.

Would that work better?

starwolf_ftw - December 7, 2008 07:04 PM (GMT)
I have heard a couple times that unless you have 85+ range or mage *cough* magik *cough* that you shouldn't snipe or bind. If this is true, then the clan is screwed because we have only a small handfull of members with skills of that caliber. Just look on the Runehead.. Are we going to have to make do with lower level snipers and binders, and if so, is it really a good idea? I'm just curious and inexperienced in clan wars so please don't flame me.. :(

Golden arm42 - December 7, 2008 07:35 PM (GMT)
No. It means we do the best we can with the levels we have. A low-level sniper is better than not, and a low-level binder (assuming it's not like 40 magic) is better than not.

Chuffa - December 7, 2008 07:43 PM (GMT)
TBH if they have lower ranged than combat they may aswell melee..

What's the point with people having over 70 combat and like 55 ranged sniping?

squeeki - December 7, 2008 07:44 PM (GMT)
I think teams will take alot more organization if we can pull it off great.

Loneytoni79 - December 7, 2008 09:43 PM (GMT)
It would be best for the clan if everyone just used whatever combat style that they're ranked the highest in on hiscores.

Kevinsaurus - December 7, 2008 11:28 PM (GMT)
all very good points guys...

yea my problem was finding wiz >.<

anyways... hopefully i'll get my mage even higher soon so that I can help out more with the binding...
i just didn't bind during the OD war becuz they woulda totally k0ed me in like 2 secondsd if i put druidic on...

Srjiglestik - December 7, 2008 11:53 PM (GMT)
i agree

damon - December 8, 2008 02:58 AM (GMT)
hey magic is only half right.. ur really not suppose to RANGE snipe without 85+ range.. but you can always melee snipe. So for snipers we would need people with high ATTACK and OR range not both. binders only need around 70 mage.. druidic pretty much takes care of the binding with its effect.

3monightmar3 - December 8, 2008 09:35 AM (GMT)
so 70 mage and drudic makes a good binder? and higher ranged than combat makes a good ranged sniper?

InfamDaRoc - December 9, 2008 05:56 PM (GMT)
Even though I'm poor, I am going to do my best to help out in the binding situation because my Magic is 58 and my next highest is, I believe, 53-55 strength... I am going to be spending the next week or so making money for my main, and then investing it into runes for training... Sucks I lost Camelot tele though...

---------------------
Infam's Battle Plan
---------------------

I think what we should do is assign everyone who attends a position, 2 to 3 days in advance (or let them sign up for one) and the day before they should train that role exclusively. I know some people will not want to do that, but it will help get your levels up in areas you may not like to train all the time... I myself hate range with a fiery passion, but got it to 45 so me and a friend could pk in the wildy together... I think the same perimeters apply, we need to train our army, both on organization and on statistics.

I was checking through the list of one of our upcoming wars on runehead, and we are severely out-leveled. That means what stats we have need to be maximized and used to best efficiency. I also believe for that war we will need to take huge advantage of pots and drinks (Str pots for melee, Mind Bomb's for Mage) We also need to specialize in our armor choice, with the POSSIBLE exception of mages for anti KO's. People should be MAXING out there bonuses to their attack style of choice (FULL hide for rangers, Wizzy hat/robes, etc).
-Someone should post a list for Minimum Equipment for Melee, Mage, and Range (and hyrbids, if we have them). But I ask you keep it reasonable, 200k-250k is a reasonable price range for Melee for Weapons and Armor, is acceptable for Mages after price of Runes, Staffs, and Battle Robes, and 200k should be more than enough for full G Hide, Coif, etc, and Bow and ADDY Arrows.

As rangers and especially mages suffer from the actual cost of participating in the wars, and have to recoup the losses, I think it might be a good idea if we started doing pools for those. Say, EACH person gives the ranger 25 arrows (depending on the pull) and the mage the same in runes... This way, people will want to mage/range and will be able to do so without costing them an arm and a leg. And by each person contributing, it shouldn't cost very much to any individual and it will help the clan as a whole. This does not mean you should just expect handouts for everything, but for the expendable things its nice. Unless you work something out with another member, you should be expected to provide your own permanent gear and the majority of your expendable. Even though I am poor, I think this may work out majorly efficient. I know most RuneScaper's are greedy, but I think that this should be done. I noticed our turnout for Rangers/Mage is horrendous compared to the melee. It should just be bad, not horrendous, not sickening, but bad in comparison. Maybe 1 Mage to every 4 Melee, 1 Ranger for every 2/3 Melee. Maybe 1 Ranger to every 3 Melee, and half that many Mages. I'm not sure on the numbers, but something along these lines seems reasonable in comparing power to cost to efficiency.

I also think we should designate someone/some people to spend a day collecting str pot ingredients so they can sell pots for a discounted price to each member in the war. The same applies for Mind Bombs... Go buy like 10-20 and bank em for the event...

Basically, we need to start preparing for war, instead of just jumping headlong into the fray. For Ancient Legion to become a coherent war machine, we need to act like Wolf and Squeek and power train, we need to be like me and spend half your play time collecting material for upcoming projects, and we need to not be like Tech and stop acting like Weenies...

What does everyone think about this?

P.S. Someone should pick up about 10-20 Team 15 Capes to be distrubited at the Wars. It is wise that we all have one...

K Arthur90 - December 9, 2008 07:11 PM (GMT)
Agreed (moslty) with Infam.
I'd be happy to provide arrows for our rangers, and low level runes for the wizards. Although Chuffa would actually craft the runes. I could mine the ess however.
Also, as I said, the team cape would help very much. But I suggest choosing two team cape colors, for the other clan can eventually use the same color as ours.
BTW, I've already stocked some team 15 capes. Anyone needing, just ask me.

starwolf_ftw - December 9, 2008 08:58 PM (GMT)
Great post Infam! This could really work! I like how we should designate people to be rangers/mages before the war that way no one can question themselves as to what they should be. I remeber our last war, I looked at the cc and everyone was talking about maging and sniping...I was worried, but thankfully mostly everyone was melee. With a designated system, this problem could be avioded.

Power training...thanks for mentioning me and Squeeki, but it's definetly not for everyone. I'm worn out after that week of non stop combat and need a break! I just say we just need to set goals for ourselves and others to increase gradually over time instead of in a short burst (like me).

Overall, great ideas! :D




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